Hanse320/325 vs older boat

[johnalison]

Following the OP original choice thoughts, I think he should also consider the predecessors to the Hanse 320. The Hanses 312, 315 and 341 from the 2000-2007 period sit in the gap between his 2 choices. To a certain extent they have the looks and finish of the "trad" designs, but the convenience and brightness of more recent designs. For 10 years we have been very happy up in Scotland with our 2003 Hanse 341. The 341, is basically the big brother of the 315 and shares the cockpit and much of the internal furniture. There aren't many around, so I would suggest giving the UK dealers, Michael Schmidt and Partners or Inspiration Marine to see if they know of one you could look at, or post a question on the MyHanse forum.

Last weekend, before the original post, we had our first sail of the season. On a 6 mile long light wind downwind leg, we passed the last version of the Moody 31. Over the whole of the leg, we were surprised just how much faster we were, though I have to say that as we passed them, we commented that we did not think their sail setting was optimal, even though we know they have sailed for quite a long time.

Remember, if you sail in tidal waters that extra bit of boat speed, can get you to your destination before the tide turns and after the tide has turned against you, it could make the difference between you getting somewhere, or not.

I think you have to be careful in assuming that the boat you have passed must be inherently slower. I think that my HR 34 has a decent turn of speed for its size and age but I don't kid myself that because I once sailed past a First 45-ish on a reach that my boat will always be faster. On that occasion we were both under full sail in a F3-4 and there wasn't anything obviously wrong with its sail-setting. Maybe his bottom was foul, or he was towing something, I don't know. Last year we sailed past two Jeanneaus of about 38 feet on a close fetch in light winds, and again I don't fool myself that we will be faster under all conditions and with all helmsmen. It is only when you have raced round the buoys against other boats that you really get a good idea of relative speeds.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Once again, the La Manchas are out tilting windmills or wind driven boats, as that may be.

I have never had a particular attachment to any one type, other that she be a good cruiser that gets me to where we wish to go, in foreseeable time, safety and reasonable comfort.
I do not race, so I am quite happy to make concessions for certain qualities I deem suitable for the purpose.

However, since joining this form I have come to understand that a short keel, once understood to be simply defined as, a distinct separation of keel and rudder, will drop off, that spade rudders are dangerous, the devil, or both.
While, on the other hand, a long keel, now found to be any leeway resisting device with an aspect ratio of less than 3:1, could not sail itself out of a paper bag and in a full gale if it tried, even to looward, but, fortunately, can be run over submerged rocks (very slowly of course, for that is their only way of making progress) without taking harm.
Also that any boat older than ten years is a condensation dripping, mildew sprouting, dark cave, an antiquated artifact, bereft of the most basic needs of human comfort and cobbled together, haphazardly, by gin-sodden, senile craftsmen; whereas now, all "modern" boats are spewed forth in mind-bending precision from antiseptic mechanized assembly lines and, once launched, their sunny interiors will carry you across any ocean in coddling comfort and, suspended from the laws of physics, at blistering speed.

if you really think your boat still fits your sailing a decade after purchase, whatever the boat, you have arrived at a point where your sailing is not continuing to develop

Interesting point, once I got beyond the arrogance of the statement.

I doubt that the progress of my personal development is limited or bound by anything in particular, especially when I have the skill and ability to shape said artifact to suit my needs, even a boat.
Nothing is stopping us to improve an old boat's performance or comfort, other than our own personal limitations, be that financially or intellectually. To me a boat is a tool to fulfill our ambitions and dreams and I certainly have no hesitation modifying a tool to make that happen. That is empowerment and, not just to to say, an ongoing process in develloping my sailing skills.

 

[Concerto]

Just for the record, about 12 years ago, I hit a rock when motoring at 6kts in my Hanse 311. The sudden stop threw me several feet forward. I nearly went down into the cabin from the helm position. The only damage was to the antifoul. The rock was about 1200 down so it did apply quite a bit of leverage to the keel.
So i am more than happy with the strength of the keel on my boat.

Today I was talking to a very experienced sailing instructor (younger than myself) who told me about a 38ft Jenneau, now about 5 or 6 years old, that ran aground at the entrance of the Crouch several years ago. This had been kept hushed up as the owners did not want any bad publicity and only a few people knew on the "accident". I know the name of the boat but feel I should not disclose it publically. The keel matrix became detatched as the blobs of bonding sealant were expected to spread in the fixing process, but did not. The repair cost £32,000 and the boat is now much stronger than originally built. He also told me of other even newer boats that he has seen how thin decks and hulls are becoming as he saw when fittings and equipment were being fitted. These boats meet the RCD standards but are almost being built with built in obsolescence to ensure a continuing market for new boats. The RCD does not set a scantling requirement like the old Lloyds insisted upon. For too many years boats are being designed to just meet RCD rules which are supposed to protect consumers, but many people are asking whether they need sustantial amendment to strengthen the RCD to fully protect consumers. Although this sailing instructor uses modern boats, he said would not buy one for his family.

Funny how this sailing instructor's view matches my opinion and I did not initiate this conversation. Another experienced yacht owner, who has a Moody S38, was talking about why he has decided not to change his boat to a new Bavaria 50. He thought carefully about a new boat and could afford it. He decided the very high freeboard was just too high and required steps to get on and off when moored alongside a pontoon. He also considered the number of harbours along the South Coast he has had problems with his getting S38 into and then trying to get a berth or mooring, going larger will make this even worse. When I mentioned the damage to the 38ft Jenneau, I told him the name and he knows the boat quite well, he was shocked and he then agreed that modern boats are inherintly not as strong as older boats.

Returning to the OP's question. Although I prefer older boats due to their construction, he should be fine with a boat from the late 90's or early naughties. These craft were still built to a better standard than today. Just remember whatever boat you finally decide to buy will have compromises and you will probably not get it exactly right with your first purchase. You will find that as your boys grow up, they may want to go dinghy sailing instead of armchair sailing, or they may want to race your cruiser and you will need to change your boat. With this in mind, I would advise buying a yacht built by a well known builder as this will be easier to sell on and get a good price.

I have been sailing since 1965 and sailed a huge number of yachts, including racing many offshore, and also had most major breakages (like mast and rudder), including having a 5 month old boat badly damaged in the 1988 hurricane that was repaired and cost 65% of the basic boat price, the only thing I have never experienced is a sinking yacht. Also I have helped fit out a 34ft hull and deck, plus help build two 30ft yachts from plans in glassfibre, plus a number of dinghies. My comments come from all these experiences.

 

[matt1]

Yawn

There’s surely a line where passion / loyalty for a brand get crossed and starts to look a lot more like having “issues”

Without the need to state my experience I can’t think of a single boatbuilder that I haven’t heard of having had problems at one time or another; Westerly keels in the early days, Moody’s with hull stiffening, ask a blaster their experience with HR laminate, even the mighty starlights had to be rebuilt with major hull surgery, Hunter boats with their one off resin issue, Beneteau briefly had an osmosis issue, Oyster and Bavaria keels ........I could go on!

Let’s try to avoid disparaging brands to try to justify ourselves. These are other people’s pride and joy. When bothered to sift through all the BS and nonsense on these kind of threads the one thing that strikes me is I’ve rarely heard anyone declare their brand of boat a lemon. Who can say that about cars? Strikes me that whether it’s old, new, ultra expensive quality brand or cheap and cheerful mass production everybody seems happy with their choice

 

[dom]

There’s surely a line where passion / loyalty for a brand get crossed and starts to look a lot more like having “issues”

When bothered to sift through all the BS and nonsense on these kind of threads the one thing that strikes me is I’ve rarely heard anyone declare their brand of boat a lemon. Who can say that about cars?

Not me; my mechanic tell me that my Austin Allegro is the best there’s ever been.

Sex on wheels IMHO. And on a tight corner, no modern car stands a chance

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I think you have to be careful in assuming that the boat you have passed must be inherently slower. I think that my HR 34 has a decent turn of speed for its size and age but I don't kid myself that because I once sailed past a First 45-ish on a reach that my boat will always be faster. On that occasion we were both under full sail in a F3-4 and there wasn't anything obviously wrong with its sail-setting. Maybe his bottom was foul, or he was towing something, I don't know. Last year we sailed past two Jeanneaus of about 38 feet on a close fetch in light winds, and again I don't fool myself that we will be faster under all conditions and with all helmsmen. It is only when you have raced round the buoys against other boats that you really get a good idea of relative speeds.

As an X owner of a First45f5 performance rig perhaps you should have asked what anchor he was using

 

[johnalison]

As an X owner of a First45f5 performance rig perhaps you should have asked what anchor he was using

I agree it was an extreme example, but I'm hardly likely to report the occasions when other boats have sailed past me, am I?

 

[dom]

As an X owner of a First45f5 performance rig perhaps you should have asked what anchor he was using

Nice boats - sailed v. well

 

[pvb]

Today I was talking to a very experienced sailing instructor (younger than myself) who told me about a 38ft Jenneau, now about 5 or 6 years old, that ran aground at the entrance of the Crouch several years ago. This had been kept hushed up as the owners did not want any bad publicity and only a few people knew on the "accident". I know the name of the boat but feel I should not disclose it publically. The keel matrix became detatched as the blobs of bonding sealant were expected to spread in the fixing process, but did not. The repair cost £32,000 and the boat is now much stronger than originally built. He also told me of other even newer boats that he has seen how thin decks and hulls are becoming as he saw when fittings and equipment were being fitted. These boats meet the RCD standards but are almost being built with built in obsolescence to ensure a continuing market for new boats. The RCD does not set a scantling requirement like the old Lloyds insisted upon. For too many years boats are being designed to just meet RCD rules which are supposed to protect consumers, but many people are asking whether they need sustantial amendment to strengthen the RCD to fully protect consumers.

Boats aren't designed to be crashed, unlike cars. If it's the Jeanneau I think you're referring to, it's a 2007 boat. As for thin hulls and scantling requirements, if this were true how is it that these modern boats weigh about the same as the boats from last century which you're so fond of?

That 2007 Jeanneau has a displacement of 7330kg. A Westerly Oceanranger 38 from the 1980s displaces 7212kg, virtually the same.

 

[dom]

Boats aren't designed to be crashed, unlike cars. If it's the Jeanneau I think you're referring to, it's a 2007 boat. As for thin hulls and scantling requirements, if this were true how is it that these modern boats weigh about the same as the boats from last century which you're so fond of?

That 2007 Jeanneau has a displacement of 7330kg. A Westerly Oceanranger 38 from the 1980s displaces 7212kg, virtually the same.

Without getting into the old vs. modern debate, a prospective purchaser should bear in mind that the post-cure mechanical properties of old hand layed-up hulls will only be close to the strength of modern vacuum-infused hulls, if near-identical ratios of matt and resin were used, near-identical matt fabrics, and near-identical curing conditions. And they will always be heavier on a strength for strength basis.

Optimal hand layed-up hulls were in practice almost impossible to achieve using the old matt/bucket/splosh techniques in a traditional UK factory setting. Quality control was further complicated by the standard of hull fabrication varying wildly between constructors and even within the same constructor on different days and during different seasons.

Also to be avoided are the dreaded chopper-gun hulls, where short fibres were mixed with blown resin to quickly build-up lousy hulls.

 

[geem]

Boats aren't designed to be crashed, unlike cars. If it's the Jeanneau I think you're referring to, it's a 2007 boat. As for thin hulls and scantling requirements, if this were true how is it that these modern boats weigh about the same as the boats from last century which you're so fond of?

That 2007 Jeanneau has a displacement of 7330kg. A Westerly Oceanranger 38 from the 1980s displaces 7212kg, virtually the same.

Because they are full of MDF?

 

[Graham376]

Not me; my mechanic tell me that my Austin Allegro is the best there’s ever been.
Sex on wheels IMHO. And on a tight corner, no modern car stands a chance

Don't allow suspended tow after breakdown, they tended to bend in the middle Austin Allegro voted world's worst car - Quentin Willson - Mirror Online

 

[Daydream believer]

On a 6 mile long light wind downwind leg, we passed the last version of the Moody 31. Over the whole of the leg, we were surprised just how much faster we were, though I have to say that as we passed them, we commented that we did not think their sail setting was optimal, even though we know they have sailed for quite a long time.

Frankly, If a Hanse 341 HAD NOT overtaken a Moody 31 I think the helmsman should have been stood against a wall & shot. , Such a comparison is not fair to the poor Moody

 

[FortBeau]

My feelings are the reverse of yours and I wouldn't consider standing for anything more than a short hop of twenty minutes or so. I had a wheel for one of my four boats. Although it was OK to windward, I find a tiller more natural, with the advantage that you are almost entirely using flexor muscles in the arm, which are stronger and less tiring. Off the wind is where I think that a wheel does better especially as I get crick in the neck when helming off-wind for more than a few hours. You also have the advantage that you can't be frightened by large waves coming from astern. A tiller gives you a bigger cockpit table.

Wondering why the tiller means you can't be frightened by large waves coming from astern? Is it because downwind you steer with the tiller behind you, so you never see them coming ;>

 

[FortBeau]

I agree. Also from the perspective of reliability, tillers have only one moving part with no gears, wires or pullys to worry about.

Don't most wheels have options for an emergency tiller anyway?

 

[Martin&Rene]

Daydream Believer
Sorry, you have missed the subtlety of my message. We were not surprised that we were faster, it was by "how much" ie it was a very very large amount. As a dinghy racer and instructor, I know how big a difference the competence of a helmsman makes, but I would consider that on a broad reach is where the differences are the least,

 

[Laminar Flow]

Don't most wheels have options for an emergency tiller anyway?

They do, however the set-ups are frequently awkward (this is the polite version) and most often have to overcome the friction and resistance of the primary steering mechanism. They are after all, in this instance, considered an emergency back-up.

I have to agree with Johnalison here, under 40' I would consider a tiller to be the preferred steering system. It doesn't prevent you having a below deck autopilot either, doesn't require a rudder indicator, doesn't leave you in any doubt when you need to fix your sail balance for optimum performance, is superbly responsive and you can hold it between your knees as you sort out the main sheet or hang on to your cuppa. In port you hinge it up and it's out of the way whereas some owners of wheel steered boats remove the offending device so they can move about freely or have one of those (wobbly) folding models.

 

[pvb]

They do, however the set-ups are frequently awkward (this is the polite version) and most often have to overcome the friction and resistance of the primary steering mechanism. They are after all, in this instance, considered an emergency back-up.

If wheel steering has failed, there's unlikely to be any resistance to overcome. Emergency tillers are usually a simple drop-in arrangement, fitting on the rudder stock. In my current boat, an access hatch has to be removed first, requiring only a winch handle to unscrew it.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Daydream Believer
Sorry, you have missed the subtlety of my message. We were not surprised that we were faster, it was by "how much" ie it was a very very large amount. As a dinghy racer and instructor, I know how big a difference the competence of a helmsman makes, but I would consider that on a broad reach is where the differences are the least,

Nearly 4' longer on the waterline, higher SA/displacement ratio, lower Displ/length ratio, not accounting for a weedy bottom, old sails, poor sheeting angle and handling, etc, etc. Pays to check the numbers when comparing the fruit of your choice.

We too have "surprised" some supposedly more slippery candidates in certain conditions; still doesn't make us a racer.

 

[ProMariner]

I think it's lovely that everybody here already owns the perfect boat, I'm happy for you all. Whether it's compact and nippy, or grand and luxurious. Tried and tested or modern and cutting edge. Built to be exclusive, or attainable. There is a perfect boat for everyone.