Hank On Jib Numbering v Size

[Trident]

I have a 16m mast so around a 16.5m luff jib with a 7m foot. This was roller furling and I've had it re-cut for hanks now and removed the furling system. I'm very happy with it but I need a bigger suite of sails for long distance cruising so I want to get a number 2 and number 3 jib. I've never had a boat without roller furling before so I have no idea on the ratios of these - how big should I be looking for a number 2 and number 3 ?

 

[geem]

I am sure you have reason to go back in time but why? Twin furling headsails is the way to go. Large genoa and working headsail at you finger tips. We see this Solent rig set up more and more often on cruising boats now.

 

[Trident]

I have a good reason and its already long done with the Harken furling sold a year ago so not going to change back .

 

[srm]

Recent or older designed boat? Before roller reefing gears became normal the designer's sail plan would show the different sail sizes.
An alternative is to ask a sailmaker.

 

[Trident]

Its an older boat but the original sail plan I have is for a roller jib of 58 Sq M

 

[rowlock]

Consider a reefing No2 which will cover your No 3 needs. Depending on the rig geometry it may be possible to use the same sheet position or move the car to suit and a tack line in which case if the halyard is lead to the cockpit no need to leave the cockpit. Standard setup for Mini 650 and others. Benefit is a near perfect shape sail in either situation.

 

[DFL1010]

I have a 16m mast so around a 16.5m luff jib with a 7m foot. This was roller furling and I've had it re-cut for hanks now and removed the furling system. I'm very happy with it but I need a bigger suite of sails for long distance cruising so I want to get a number 2 and number 3 jib. I've never had a boat without roller furling before so I have no idea on the ratios of these - how big should I be looking for a number 2 and number 3 ?

I think you've got your numbers back to front - No.1 is the biggest.

There's no defined ratios for this sort of thing. Best is to speak to a sailmaker who will be more than happy to talk you through the process as it will depend on use case and boat type/layout.

 

[Trident]

I think you've got your numbers back to front - No.1 is the biggest.

There's no defined ratios for this sort of thing. Best is to speak to a sailmaker who will be more than happy to talk you through the process as it will depend on use case and boat type/layout.

Yes I have the biggest so need a 2 and a 3 to be smaller - by bigger suite of sails I mean more of them not bigger actual sails ...

I'm basically hoping to buy second hand smaller sails rather than get a new one made so was trying to get an idea of exactly what sort of ratio to look for but it seems it may be more complex than that (like everything else with sailing )

 

[flaming]

I have a 16m mast so around a 16.5m luff jib with a 7m foot. This was roller furling and I've had it re-cut for hanks now and removed the furling system. I'm very happy with it but I need a bigger suite of sails for long distance cruising so I want to get a number 2 and number 3 jib. I've never had a boat without roller furling before so I have no idea on the ratios of these - how big should I be looking for a number 2 and number 3 ?

There is no hard and fast rule. It's really what works for your boat. It will also depend on if the boat is designed to be used with an overlapping genoa or non overlapping jibs.

If overlapping then the "convention" would be that the number 1 would be a lightweight full sized Genoa cut full for max power in winds of say 8 knots or less. The number 2 would be a nearly full sized genoa, cut a bit flatter and used in winds of 8-18ish. The number 3 would typically then be a non overlapping blade jib, that is full hoist but a lot shorter in the foot, typically 100-105%J. Typically with battens to support a modest roach.
(J being the distance between the foot of the mast and the bottom of the forestay). The number 4 would be a 3/4ish hoist sail with also a higher foot and maybe 90-95% J.

But that's for a full racing suite. In a cruising context I'd suspect that your number 1 is probably going to cover the 1 and 2 need, but probably not go as far up the windspeed. I'd suggest a non overlapping 3, with reef points as suggested.

 

[srm]

If overlapping then the "convention" would be that the number 1 would be a lightweight full sized Genoa cut full for max power in winds of say 8 knots or less.

Interesting, obviously no real standardisation as I understood that No1 Jib was the "working jib" and genoas were additional ie a light genoa and a heavy genoa for the different wind strengths with different weights of cloth and cut with probably a smaller area for the heavy genoa. There could also be a drifter and/or a ghoster in a racing wardrobe for really light airs.

 

[flaming]

Interesting, obviously no real standardisation as I understood that No1 Jib was the "working jib" and genoas were additional ie a light genoa and a heavy genoa for the different wind strengths with different weights of cloth and cut with probably a smaller area for the heavy genoa. There could also be a drifter and/or a ghoster in a racing wardrobe for really light airs.

If you hark back to IOR days then you may well be right. For as long as I've been racing, so just over 20 years, the number 1 has been the biggest lightest headsail. Technically you'd call it a genoa if it was an overlapper and a jib if it wasn't.
On the Elan we had 3 full sized genoas, that we called light 1, medium 1 and 2. Or just "the heavy". Then we had a 3 and a 4. On the JPK we have non overlappers, and we have 3 full sized sails of different cuts called,1,2 and 3. Then a 4.

Life got a lot simpler in so many ways with the death of the genoa. Until some bright spark invented the code zero. And now we have at least 2 flavours of code zero to consider....

Freedom yachts anyone?

 

[dunedin]

Interesting, obviously no real standardisation as I understood that No1 Jib was the "working jib" and genoas were additional ie a light genoa and a heavy genoa for the different wind strengths with different weights of cloth and cut with probably a smaller area for the heavy genoa. There could also be a drifter and/or a ghoster in a racing wardrobe for really light airs.

That might have been a “convention” way back (the 1960s?) but No1 as the biggest genoa has been around for a few decades.

As the OP is going in reverse from 99.9% of other boaters, there should be a wide range of old sails lying around in lofts that could be bought (if not already binned). So can buy whatever is available in roughly the rights size and try them.

Love to know why going from furler to hanked on. No way I would do that (unless taking up 2 handed racing, when there might be a case for ease of dropping when under kite, but according to a survey even then 2/3rds stick to luff foils).

 

[flaming]

That might have been a “convention” way back (the 1960s?) but No1 as the biggest genoa has been around for a few decades.

As the OP is going in reverse from 99.9% of other boaters, there should be a wide range of old sails lying around in lofts that could be bought (if not already binned). So can buy whatever is available in roughly the rights size and try them.

Love to know why going from furler to hanked on. No way I would do that (unless taking up 2 handed racing, when there might be a case for ease of dropping when under kite, but according to a survey even then 2/3rds stick to luff foils).

Oh I would absolutely stick to hanks as a cruiser as opposed to luff foil. Keeps the luff contained when it's dropped and prevents the sail from falling off the boat...

The disadvantages of a very slightly inferior entry, and slower sail changing are more than made up for by the bomb proof handling.

 

[dunedin]

Oh I would absolutely stick to hanks as a cruiser as opposed to luff foil. Keeps the luff contained when it's dropped and prevents the sail from falling off the boat...

The disadvantages of a very slightly inferior entry, and slower sail changing are more than made up for by the bomb proof handling.

No, on a cruiser we would all stick to a foil with a roller furler Would never dream of returning to hanks for a lot of reasons - safety (ease of reducing / furling sail), comfort (no need to go on foredeck), performance (with Hank on sail will often have smaller sail up than optimal), interior space (no jibs cluttering up the interior).

 

[flaming]

I did mean once you'd decided to ditch the furler...

Mind you, I haven't sailed with a furler for nearly 10 years now.

 

[Tranona]

If it helps, I am just converting to the sort of rig that is suggested in post#2. The current foresail is 135% and a bit difficult to handle and in my experience with the design of boat it will sail better in most conditions with a smaller headsail - in the old days called a "working jib". This will be non overlapping and high cut clew. This will be on the stemhead forestay and the genoa on a short bowsprit for use in lighter airs and mainly offwind.

So in terms of proportions calculate first the overlap of your current largest sail and the next one down would be less overlap and maybe even none - but still full hoist. As suggested you could have this a reefing type or for your third sail a "Solent" type blade jib.

TBH though this is all a bit of guesswork without knowing the design of the boat and rig which is why it really would be a good idea to discuss your requirements with a couple of good sailmakers familiar with your boat. You may well still get conflicting advice but it will be informed and you should get an explanation for their recommendations. If you are buying used you are on your own with your own "guesses" I am not sure there is a large supply of good used hank on sails of the size you are looking for. Few people discard good headsails and the switch to furling sails took place years ago for most people/boats, so the chances of finding cheap sails to experiment with are pretty slim.

 

[srm]

That might have been a “convention” way back (the 1960s?) but No1 as the biggest genoa has been around for a few decades.

Indeed, I was looking in a couple of oldish books on sail design to see if I could find something to answer the OP's first question and the biggest one (US author) numbered sails down from the largest genoa.

 

[Trident]

No, on a cruiser we would all stick to a foil with a roller furler Would never dream of returning to hanks for a lot of reasons - safety (ease of reducing / furling sail), comfort (no need to go on foredeck), performance (with Hank on sail will often have smaller sail up than optimal), interior space (no jibs cluttering up the interior).

I found safety compromised by not being able to get the sail furled in an emergency a couple of years ago despite having the best possible kit, in new condition. The boat is a 50 foot cat with a 120% and that is one big sail not to be able to drop the second you need to. So a hank on with a downhaul is to me much safer. For long term cruising safety trumps ease of handling. Plus I have a 6m wide front deck and enough room for as many sails as I like aboard so those aren't issues.

Most riggers make a fortune fixing or replacing furlers and two I know well confide that all the major brands are not great and cruising for 5 years continuously I saw no end people stuck in port with furling issues . For long term continuous cruising nothing could be reliable than hank on

 

[MisterBaxter]

I had a boat with two reefs in the staysail once and it was an excellent system - quicker to tuck a reef in than to change a sail and a clean luff as the wind gets up. So I'd back the idea of number 1, fairly lightweight to take you up to maybe 12-15 knots; number two with little overlap and a reef or two; and storm jib. Outside of gales you'd only have one sail change as the wind got up.

 

[Supertramp]

An interesting discussion.

There are clearly preferences both ways for furled or hanked inner or solent jib. But no argument that it is a useful addition to a rig.

Also the position of the inner forestay, the size of the gap between it and the forestay and anchoring arrangements may affect choice.

I have a removable Solent stay and hank on sail, and a deep, wide foredeck with bulwarks and guard wires. Handling hank on sails is not a problem for me. I like the idea of reef points. Removing the stay back to the shrouds takes away a lot of clutter. I use it a remarkable amount. My genoa half furled seriously damages windward ability.

Yes, I would consider adding a furler for the quick changing of sails and the ability to reef easily, especially on a run. The sacrifice (apart from £000's and anchor handling space) would be the sail shape when part furled and reassurance in strong winds, especially to windward.

The OP was not asking about furling but sail size. As a rule of thumb based on history with hank ons, I would half the sail area with each reduction. My solent jib is half the size of the genoa. I have another hank on half the size of that, then a storm jib (hank on not furler add on).