Hank On Jib Numbering v Size

[geem]

An interesting discussion.

There are clearly preferences both ways for furled or hanked inner or solent jib. But no argument that it is a useful addition to a rig.

Also the position of the inner forestay, the size of the gap between it and the forestay and anchoring arrangements may affect choice.

I have a removable Solent stay and hank on sail, and a deep, wide foredeck with bulwarks and guard wires. Handling hank on sails is not a problem for me. I like the idea of reef points. Removing the stay back to the shrouds takes away a lot of clutter. I use it a remarkable amount. My genoa half furled seriously damages windward ability.

Yes, I would consider adding a furler for the quick changing of sails and the ability to reef easily, especially on a run. The sacrifice (apart from £000's and anchor handling space) would be the sail shape when part furled and reassurance in strong winds, especially to windward.

The OP was not asking about furling but sail size. As a rule of thumb based on history with hank ons, I would half the sail area with each reduction. My solent jib is half the size of the genoa. I have another hank on half the size of that, then a storm jib (hank on not furler add on).

My genoa is 700sqft. My blade jib is 290sqft. Both sails on furlers set up as a Solent rig. We never use a reefed genoa. We simply drop from genoa to blade jib when we are going to weather. Its still surprises me that the vast difference in area between the two sails doesn't cause a reduction in performance but at 20/22kts apparent wind speed, we furl the genoa away and set the jib. The smaller sail gives us as much boat speed and we point higher with less pitching.

 

[Supertramp]

My genoa is 700sqft. My blade jib is 290sqft. Both sails on furlers set up as a Solent rig. We never use a reefed genoa. We simply drop from genoa to blade jib when we are going to weather. Its still surprises me that the vast difference in area between the two sails doesn't cause a reduction in performance but at 20/22kts apparent wind speed, we furl the genoa away and set the jib. The smaller sail gives us as much boat speed and we point higher with less pitching.

Yes, I have the same happen when I go from genoa to the hank on Solent jib in 15knts+. Everything is less stressed and the boat will balance well. I do see the appeal in a second furler and especially on a larger boat, and when singlehanded. And for running with 2 jibs.....

 

[geem]

Yes, I have the same happen when I go from genoa to the hank on Solent jib in 15knts+. Everything is less stressed and the boat will balance well. I do see the appeal in a second furler and especially on a larger boat, and when singlehanded. And for running with 2 jibs.....

Crossing the pond, the twin furlers is excellent. We can run twin poles as we have two tracks. Both poles store on the mast on the tracks. It's easy for the on watch crew to furl away the genoa if a squall arrives without leaving the cockpit. Stress free sailing and no need to wake up the other half of the crew. Night time squalls across the pond can sometimes have you adjusting sails like a fiddlers elbow. The thought of going on deck 6 times in the night to hoist and drop hank on headsails doesn't bear thinking about. You would never get any sleep. Sleep on long passages is super important.

 

[William_H]

I mostly just race on my little 21ft TS. Yes I have always stuck with hank on jibs for good upwind performance. Actual sail size seems to be a variable but in my case the sail size is determined by wind strength versus boat stiffness. (not very stiff) Sail strength has never been an issue just size. (I carry 4 jibs)
For OP then it is all a question of what sails he can find available second hand. Generally luff length goes down a bit but more the foot length is reduced. Shorter foot length makes tacking easier. However a blade jib might be more unstable when running. It is good if sheeting point for sheets remains the same for smaller jibs.
So for cruising locally a second smaller jib about half area of genoa should be comfortable in most conditions you will sail in for short voyage with decent weather forecasting. (call it a no 3) If going further or longer you might need for safety an even smaller storm jib which probably will need to be very robust. Then if you want to race or push hard you might wish for a no 2 jib between genoa and no 3. Experience will soon show what you need. But again dictated by what you can find s/h. ol'will

 

[Neeves]

I'm questioning.

Hanked on Genoa, aka No1, wind builds, (she'll be al right mate) - she is not alright decision to reduce sail is a bit late - have you ever tried to pack a 150% Genoa, short handed (or single handed). No problems - hank on a No 2. - have you ever tried to hank on a No 2 in a building wind and sea? No problems - but the wind keeps building - get out the No 3, we already have 2 sails randomly suffer into sail bags, hank on No 3 - relief,

30 minutes later wind drops... drop No3, haul out No2 - which is all over the foredeck, because all we did was stuff it into a bag.

Sailing is meant to be a pleasure.

First up I'd forget the No2.

secondly....

Been there, done that

We religously listen to the forecast and rig the smallest sail needed on the furler, for the forecast with obvious consequences. Part furled sails are a definite compromise.

Geem's answer, twin furlers is the way to go (and forget the No 2).

Jonathan

 

[onesea]

I'm basically hoping to buy second hand smaller sails rather than get a new one made so was trying to get an idea of exactly what sort of ratio to look for but it seems it may be more complex than that (like everything else with sailing )

May I suggest it’s much more simple than that, go looking/ begging for old racing sails that will fit even if just about dead.
They can be found for free or fairly low cost, depending on condition, you will soon learn which size you use and which you won’t. Sell the ones you don’t like.
When you know what you want dig deep and buy them, or find another second hand one to suit.
Our previous boat we cruised, she was and X race boat with god knows how many sails.
In the end we used to sail with light weight No1, heavy No3 and working jib,
The rest lived ashore.

 

[Trident]

Geem's answer, twin furlers is the way to go (and forget the No 2).

Jonathan

Oh well then I'll just spend £20K on a pair of furlers, £10k and altering the boat for a second stay to attach and another £20K to replace all my hank on sails - then I guess there's the 3 months to get all that done. Blast, just remembered I'm leaving next week and don't have £50K budgeted to replace the entire set up - and none of that stops furlers being unreliable and sometimes dangerous - but thanks for the advice

 

[Trident]

May I suggest it’s much more simple than that, go looking/ begging for old racing sails that will fit even if just about dead.
They can be found for free or fairly low cost, depending on condition, you will soon learn which size you use and which you won’t. Sell the ones you don’t like.
When you know what you want dig deep and buy them, or find another second hand one to suit.
Our previous boat we cruised, she was and X race boat with god knows how many sails.
In the end we used to sail with light weight No1, heavy No3 and working jib,
The rest lived ashore.

That's what I have been looking to do - I lucked out with a £7000 laminate light airs jib that had been used once and the race crew never took it out of the bag again so sold it to me in perfect condition for £375! That is deck sweeper and great up to about 12 knots and then my working jib is 58m sq high cut and heavy weight for most conditions. I'm just struggling with a smaller one right now to be used when its blowing 22 knots or more, where previously I would have rolled a bit in on the working jib. I figured, as you say, that I can use some older ones for a season or so to get the hang of what I really need and like. And thank you for not saying I should go back to roller furling I will keep an eye out for racing boats and see what I can beg or buy

 

[Neeves]

Blast, just remembered I'm leaving next week and don't have £50K budgeted to replace the entire set up - and none of that stops furlers being unreliable and sometimes dangerous - but thanks for the advice

You are 'leaving' next week and don't have your sail wardrobe, and obviously not tested the sail wardrobe.

But maybe you don't actually mean what you typed.

Handling a 50m^2 laminate sail is not a bundle of laughs single or short handed.

Our, single, furler has been totally dependable for almost 20 years. Changing large headsails short handed is challenging .... dangerous....?? we do it but we have a huge foredeck

Fair winds.

Jonathan

 

[Trident]

We are leaving Monday and have the sails we need for now but I wanted to have more options as I said in the original post. I have a 6m wide foredeck so plenty of room to handle sails - now to be fair I have only tested it in light winds but they drop nicely in to a suspended bag and zip up . I have a month around the south coast of the UK to really test and refine everything before crossing Biscay and then a couple of months in the Med to make any changes before crossing the Atlantic later in the year so "leaving on the shakedown portion of the cruise" is more accurate

Sadly my furler experience has not been the same

 

[Supertramp]

The beauty and simplicity of a detachable Solent stay is it can attach right up by the forestay (12 to 18 inches aft) which may allow use of pre existing reinforcements on mast and deck. Not an inconsiderable issue on a catamaran I would think. Mine uses the same large attachment fitting as the forestay with a Highfield lever to tension. You can hank on the next sail before dropping or in my case rolling away the genoa. It is more work than a furler, especially singlehanded and I understand the psychology of "let's wait and see if it drops" leading to delaying sail changes. Dropping it in 30knts+ is exciting but then so is furling. And not something I would entertain if the bow kept slicing through waves. But in the real world without infinite resources to experiment and equip, it provides a simple solution for multiple headsails.


As others have said, I much prefer a furler for my genoa which is 150%. And my mast is only 11m.

 

[geem]

Oh well then I'll just spend £20K on a pair of furlers, £10k and altering the boat for a second stay to attach and another £20K to replace all my hank on sails - then I guess there's the 3 months to get all that done. Blast, just remembered I'm leaving next week and don't have £50K budgeted to replace the entire set up - and none of that stops furlers being unreliable and sometimes dangerous - but thanks for the advice

Furlers are not unreliable or dangerous. You only have to look at the thousands of boats here in the Caribbean that have crossed the pond. Never heard anybody say dangerous or unreliable. Probably heard a few say they were a godsend.
If you don't have the finances to set your boat up safely and reliability before a circumnavigation with just two of you onboard then seriously think about what you are doing.
People do do it on a budget single handed with limited funds in tiny boats. You are are on a large boat with large sails. Dealing with hanked on sails without a full crew is not something I would do.

 

[Tranona]

We are leaving Monday and have the sails we need for now but I wanted to have more options as I said in the original post. I have a 6m wide foredeck so plenty of room to handle sails - now to be fair I have only tested it in light winds but they drop nicely in to a suspended bag and zip up . I have a month around the south coast of the UK to really test and refine everything before crossing Biscay and then a couple of months in the Med to make any changes before crossing the Atlantic later in the year so "leaving on the shakedown portion of the cruise" is more accurate

Sadly my furler experience has not been the same

I am intrigued. understand why you have removed the furler (even though I think your concerns about them are misplaced) - but what size crew do you have? Just because you have a bigger foredeck does not change the sheer size of the sails and the difficulties of changing such sails in heavy weather. OK if you have a strong full crew, but even then you may well find that your selection of different size sails still leaves gaps simply because they are discrete sizes compared with variable sizes possible with furling sails. Accept that you do not have the budget to properly equip the boat with reliable gear and suitable sails, but still think what you have is sub optimal.

No doubt you will discover whether it is workable in your shakedown cruise and hopefully report back with your experiences.

 

[Neeves]

We too have an inner forestay, Solent stay?, it is also on a high field lever and it is secured within inches of the attachment for the forestay. The 2 stays use the same reinforcing (which is how they were designed). The idea was to tie the inner stay out of the way - but making a stay unobtrusive is easier said than done and we tend to sail with the inner stay 'rigged'. This sounds inconvenient but on long passages tacking is a major event (in that it happens seldom) so it does not foul the No 1 (150%) nor No 3. The inner stay takes, I suppose you would call it, a No4 and the storm jib.

We only have one furler, see below, and when we need to change from the No 1 to No 3 its a major exercise. As I said a 55m^2 sail is real handful - at anchor, and more so at sea. But when you make long passages you need the 'area' ^m2 if light winds.

We also have an unstayed headsail - laminate on a simple furler on a bowsprit for sailing off the wind.

When we raced we did so with hanked headsails (and a crew of 6). Even with a crew of 6 it was a major exercise - harnesses, tethers, drop sail, release hanks, halyard, retrieve sheets, bundle sail up - stuff down below, drag replacement sail to forestay, hank on, replace sheets, hoist - then pack the sail that had been removed ready for the next hoist...This commonly needed two on the foredeck.

I appreciate furlers cost money - but a dependable furler does not demand crew on the foredeck in big seas, togged up with harnesses etc. Nor does the furled sail demand careful packing ready for the next hoist (and laminates need to be treated with some care). I also appreciate, now that we have a furler, that a No1 (or 150% Genoa) is pretty average when part furled and you have head winds and seas - and why we swap to our No 3 (at sea if necessary). We should have done what Geem has - twin furlers (presumably one behind the other). But the rig was designed round what we thought was correct - based on our practices when racing). You live and learn - and accept the compromises.

Our rig was designed for 2 people - ideally without the need for both crew to be on deck together - so effectively set up for single handed sailing (though the AP replaces one crew member (as long as nothing goes wrong).

Sail change needs to be clearly thought through and broken down into simple stages.

There is no perfect answer, lots of compromises - but I would not fancy changing headsails in 30 knots, seas, at 2am, and half way across the Atlantic - short handed.

I too prefer a furler

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

A minor comment - now that I have read the thread for the third time.

Furling a large headsail on a cat might be a different technique to a mono - we raced a mono and now sail a cat.

Furling a large headsail on a cat in light winds is not different, I suspect, to a mono. Just grind it in.

In winds, and its easy to mistake how strong the wind is on a cat when sailing downwind, the loads can be enormous. When we furl our screecher, a 'sort of' Code Zero, we blanket the headsail behind the main and this reduces the tension on the furling line factorially. If we don't do this - it can be impossible to furl the sail. You need to be very careful not to accidentally gybe which is a real danger in big seas - so its a time to have all crew on deck (unless you are running a very large crew) - just to minimise the accidental gybe.


As another aside

We found that our original rig was underpowered, with a self tacking headsail, a No 3, when beating (the assumption being that cat owners do not sail to windward). Consequently when we did sail to windward our performance was .... boring. We then re-rigged with a 150% Genoa which allows us to make progress to windward in light winds - but the Genoa was too big in winds over, say 15/20 knots and the original No 3 then proved its worth. We added the No1 and the build was such that the reinforcing for the extra tracks and, one, winch (we cross sheet) was part of the build and an easy upgrade. If we need to sail to windward but started with the No1 - we drop it and replace (on the furler) with the No3.

Jonathan

 

[Trident]

Furlers are not unreliable or dangerous. You only have to look at the thousands of boats here in the Caribbean that have crossed the pond. Never heard anybody say dangerous or unreliable. Probably heard a few say they were a godsend.
If you don't have the finances to set your boat up safely and reliability before a circumnavigation with just two of you onboard then seriously think about what you are doing.
People do do it on a budget single handed with limited funds in tiny boats. You are are on a large boat with large sails. Dealing with hanked on sails without a full crew is not something I would do.

I have rebuilt the boat over two years just how I want it after 30,000 miles of cruising over 5 years - and have within reason an unlimited budget - it just beggars belief that when I ask for some size information on hank on sails I get pages of unsolicited advice to blow £50K on changing my boat to roller reefing! I made clear in the first post that I would not do that and that my experience shapes that decision; why would anyone think I would change my mind on that.

Have you ever thought about hw many people don't make it to the Caribbean because their furlers broke! Honestly I know to riggers who make very good 6 figure incomes every year and they tell me that a good third of that comes from repairing furling systems - and if they're over 4 or 5 years old they simply won't repair them because they are junk at that point.

 

[Trident]

A minor comment - now that I have read the thread for the third time.

Furling a large headsail on a cat might be a different technique to a mono - we raced a mono and now sail a cat.

Furling a large headsail on a cat in light winds is not different, I suspect, to a mono. Just grind it in.

In winds, and its easy to mistake how strong the wind is on a cat when sailing downwind, the loads can be enormous. When we furl our screecher, a 'sort of' Code Zero, we blanket the headsail behind the main and this reduces the tension on the furling line factorially. If we don't do this - it can be impossible to furl the sail. You need to be very careful not to accidentally gybe which is a real danger in big seas - so its a time to have all crew on deck (unless you are running a very large crew) - just to minimise the accidental gybe.


As another aside

We found that our original rig was underpowered, with a self tacking headsail, a No 3, when beating (the assumption being that cat owners do not sail to windward). Consequently when we did sail to windward our performance was .... boring. We then re-rigged with a 150% Genoa which allows us to make progress to windward in light winds - but the Genoa was too big in winds over, say 15/20 knots and the original No 3 then proved its worth. We added the No1 and the build was such that the reinforcing for the extra tracks and, one, winch (we cross sheet) was part of the build and an easy upgrade. If we need to sail to windward but started with the No1 - we drop it and replace (on the furler) with the No3.

Jonathan

That makes sense.

In my case I had a failure to furl in 25 -30 knots - we were heading in to wind at about 40 degrees to go in to Dover port in quite big seas. They told us to come in the east entrance and at the last second gave an urgent change as a ferry was leaving through that entrance. This meant an urgent drop of sails as we were getting very flukey high gusts off the walls of the port and at that point the 6 month old largest most expensive Harken furler would not furl , and ended with me lying on the front deck under green water with feet lodged in to the inner stay and hauling like mad until I got a bit away and then trying to tie the rest up with its own sheets. This sail weighs 50 kg and flapping around is no fun! A hank on sail , even if flapping about to get it in the bag would come down straight away with a downhaul and my custom bag incorporates two long pull straps so that if I can't get it in neatly I just need loop them round the big mess and tighten down to have it safe if not neat. Against that background safety always comes first to me and hank on is safer

 

[geem]

I have rebuilt the boat over two years just how I want it after 30,000 miles of cruising over 5 years - and have within reason an unlimited budget - it just beggars belief that when I ask for some size information on hank on sails I get pages of unsolicited advice to blow £50K on changing my boat to roller reefing! I made clear in the first post that I would not do that and that my experience shapes that decision; why would anyone think I would change my mind on that.

Have you ever thought about hw many people don't make it to the Caribbean because their furlers broke! Honestly I know to riggers who make very good 6 figure incomes every year and they tell me that a good third of that comes from repairing furling systems - and if they're over 4 or 5 years old they simply won't repair them because they are junk at that point.

I haven't met anybody who sailed the pond and broke a furler. I am sure it happens but its not a common occurrence. They are pretty simple devices. Even very inexperienced charterers don't seem to be able to break them on a regular basis.
I am in an anchorage here in the Caribbean with well over 100 boats. I can't see a single boat with hank on sails. Your decision based off your view of reliability is something most sailors would not recognise. The additional risk you are subjecting your crew and yourself to is not insignificant.
You have a very biased view of furlers based off a very small sample.
My Selden genoa furler is 28 years old and has done several Atlantic crossings. Certainly not junk. But even so, I have second furler.
If you have unlimited funds, why are you not simply setting up with twin headsail furlers? Why is £50k a problem to somebody with unlimited funds?
This forum is not the place to get size information on a boat that you dont even declare what it is? If you want thst kind of info you go to a sailmaker.

 

[Tranona]

Have you ever thought about hw many people don't make it to the Caribbean because their furlers broke! Honestly I know to riggers who make very good 6 figure incomes every year and they tell me that a good third of that comes from repairing furling systems - and if they're over 4 or 5 years old they simply won't repair them because they are junk at that point.

They are the wrong people to ask. Of course they see damaged furlers - that is their job. BUT they don't see all the undamaged furlers that in their thousands reliably do their job.

This is one of those products where the numbers don't lie - the failure rate is miniscule - and the benefits so overwhelming.

As I said I can understand why you have done it, but suspect that you will find it a retrograde step - and I guess the difficulty in answering your basic question is because there is not a simple answer, only maybe some choices are less worse than others.

 

[Neeves]

Trident,

Geem beat me to it

Don't get uptight. We are trying to help. None of us knew your specific background and the events that shaped your decisions. Its the problem with forum we never get the whole story and the OP does not want to disclose the whole story - because he does not think it relevant (but we don't know that).

But we genuinely are trying to be helpful. We were all puzzled at your decision making process (and I only identified you were sailing a cat because another member mentioned it in a post).

If we sound critical - its based on incomplete information from you (normal in a forum) and based on our own, very individual, and not necessarily relevant experiences.

Jonathan

Geem and then Tranona.