The purpose of storm jib hanks over a headfoil, and the optimum solution

merjan

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Hi,

On our 28-footer the storm jib is hoisted on the head foil with a bolt rope on its luff. This needs to be supplemented by hanks, and I am trying to understand what sort of hanks would work best. I am looking for a solution that minimises the time spent on the bow, the requirement of the use of two hands. The problem is that I am not sure what one should expect from these hanks: Are they merely a backup just in case the storm jib pops out of the headfoil groove, or should they prevent that from happening in the first place?

Softies with dogbones are perfect for the former function, and they can be attached very quickly, hardly requiring both hands. However to prevent the jib from coming out of the groove whilst still leaving some slack to allow the jib to be hoisted requires some precise tension, and that is very difficult to achieve as you would need to get the length of the soft shackle correct down to a millimeter. A hand tied knot would do a better job.

I am inclined to make the hank near the head of the sail a knot (to prevent the sail from coming off the luff), and the rest loose softies (to act as backups).

Is there a standard practice here as I am not sure if I reinvent the wheel is a good idea in this instance.

Any advice / experience would be very much welcome.
 

MisterBaxter

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Forgive my ignorance but if you have shackles, why does the sail need to go into the foil as well? If you were just using the shackles it would be much easier to prepare and hoist, and the exact length of the soft shackles would be less critical.
 

merjan

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Forgive my ignorance but if you have shackles, why does the sail need to go into the foil as well? If you were just using the shackles it would be much easier to prepare and hoist, and the exact length of the soft shackles would be less critical.
I was assuming that it's prefereable to fly the sail in the headfoil (as long as it stays there) to distribute the load and avoid point loads on the headfoil.
 

flaming

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Hi,
This needs to be supplemented by hanks,
Are you saying this because the sail has eyelets that look like they should take hanks as well, or because you know it needs to be supplemented?

My storm jib and my slightly larger heavy weather jib, have eyelets. They're not there to be used in normal practice, but as an "oh dear, we destroyed the tuff luff, we better lash something together to get us home" type option.
Both sails have been used quite happily in tough conditions without needing any hanks.
 

merjan

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Are you saying this because the sail has eyelets that look like they should take hanks as well, or because you know it needs to be supplemented?

My storm jib and my slightly larger heavy weather jib, have eyelets. They're not there to be used in normal practice, but as an "oh dear, we destroyed the tuff luff, we better lash something together to get us home" type option.
Both sails have been used quite happily in tough conditions without needing any hanks.
If we "oh dear, we desroy the tuff luff", then I'd prefer that the sail stays attached to the forestay, instead of flying about and becoming a liability in conditions requiring a storm jib. I have see such things happen in J3 conditions, whether because of mistakes or not, but these things do happen.

In any case, if I understand correctly, you are of the opinion that the hanks are there as a backup, and not to prevent the sail from coming out of the foil, and that's the sort of input I was hoping for. Thank you!
 

flaming

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If we "oh dear, we desroy the tuff luff", then I'd prefer that the sail stays attached to the forestay, instead of flying about and becoming a liability in conditions requiring a storm jib. I have see such things happen in J3 conditions, whether because of mistakes or not, but these things do happen.

In any case, if I understand correctly, you are of the opinion that the hanks are there as a backup, and not to prevent the sail from coming out of the foil, and that's the sort of input I was hoping for. Thank you!
I's not that you'd already have the hanks on, but that you then have an option to use the sail with a bare forestay after a tuff luff failure.

Having a tuff luff failure but with backup hanks in place could get pretty messy, as it potentially leads to jamming it all up and not being able to drop the sail.
 

merjan

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I'm not sure what you mean by "potentially leads to jamming". In my experience in case of a failure getting the sail "down" is still easier than pulling it away from the tuff luff and the hanks would not prevent that.
 

Biggles Wader

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Why does the storm jib attachment need to be supported by hanks? If the sail has a suitable bolt rope which sits correctly in the foil it should not need any other means of support.
 

merjan

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Why does the storm jib attachment need to be supported by hanks? If the sail has a suitable bolt rope which sits correctly in the foil it should not need any other means of support.
The RORC OSR checklist asks for it (or an alternative means to be precise).
Sailmakers suggest it: Set a Storm Jib - UK Sailmakers
The sail I have has a bolt rope but also eyelets for hanks.
And I have seen sails come off the foil. So it seemed to me like a good idea.
 

flaming

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I'm not sure what you mean by "potentially leads to jamming". In my experience in case of a failure getting the sail "down" is still easier than pulling it away from the tuff luff and the hanks would not prevent that.
I mean that if you have a tuff luff failure with hanks also in place, then you potentially have loops of loose tuff luff forming and interacting with those hanks and jamming it all up. So yes, I can easily see that the hanks and a broken tuff luff could easily interact in a way that would prevent it being lowered.

I've also had sails come off the tuff luff. Yes, not exactly fun, but I'd still view tuff luff and hanks / soft loops as an either or.
 

flaming

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Also, don't forget that if you have a tuff luff, and then put hanks over it, that is a one time event, as the tuff luff is very much not designed to take load on that side. And it will definitely not be usable again afterwards.
 

merjan

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Also, don't forget that if you have a tuff luff, and then put hanks over it, that is a one time event, as the tuff luff is very much not designed to take load on that side. And it will definitely not be usable again afterwards.
That is actually a very good point. Though I am surprised that the head foil (Harken in this case) cannot survive this as the foil will be resting against the forestay.
 

flaming

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That is actually a very good point. Though I am surprised that the head foil (Harken in this case) cannot survive this as the foil will be resting against the forestay.
You fancy testing that in 35 knots plus? Bit of flogging though a tack perhaps?

And don't forget that the odds of the load lying nicely just over the "front" of the tuff luff are not great, quite likely that the side will get involved as well.

I honestly think you're overthinking this. Just hoist it on the tuff luff, and regard those eyelets as "well if it all goes wrong I can lace something up to get me home.
 

merjan

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Overthinking eventualities on a boat is my style. Dealing with a storm jib that has freed itself from the headfoil is the last thing I want as I often sail shorthanded. But it is useful to know the practice on other boats.
 

flaming

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Overthinking eventualities on a boat is my style. Dealing with a storm jib that has freed itself from the headfoil is the last thing I want as I often sail shorthanded. But it is useful to know the practice on other boats.
If you regard that as an unacceptable risk, then I think you need to ditch the headfoil for hanks totally. Worth saying that a lot of the doublehanded offshore teams have gone that way.
 

merjan

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That's right. I don't know if it's unacceptable, but it's nice to avoid such a situation. As with many things on boats there are many considerations, and one makes choices, ideally well-informed ones.
 

garymalmgren

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RE; On our 28-footer the storm jib is hoisted on the head foil with a bolt rope on its luff.
to fly the sail in the headfoil (as long as it stays there) to distribute the load and avoid point loads on the headfoil.
If we "oh dear, we desroy the tuff luff",
prevent the sail from coming out of the foil,
a tuff luff failure
f the sail has a suitable bolt rope
The sail I have has a bolt rope but also eyelets for hanks.
And I have seen sails come off the foil.
t if you have a tuff luff failure
a broken tuff luff
I've also had sails come off the tuff luff.
tuff luff
is very much not designed to take load on that side.
a storm jib that has freed itself from the headfoil
Right let's start again.
First post says bolt rope.
Then we jump to Tuff Luff,
Then we have the sail coming out of the foil.
Next we are back to a bolt rope
Now we are on to a tuff luff failure,
A bolt rope is not a tuff luff.
Tuff luff is a specific Schaefer product. Do you have this system?
If so why are you reffering to the UK sails site?
Tuff Luff - Schaefer Marine

RE: tuff luff is very much not designed to take load on that side.
Tuff luff is very much designed to spread the load over the whole foil length.


Then we have the sail coming out of the foil.
I googled this

Google Search
You will see Tuff Luff referred to on that page as a solution to luffs popping out.

This is rare and only (seems to) happens when the foil of bolt rope is damaged.
Is you bolt rope or foil damaged?
If so that is where you should start.

Any attachment (wireties, hanks, soft shackles) around the foil with dent , deform or kink the foil.
Which is what you are trying to avoid.

Very confusing.

gary
 

merjan

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This is rare and only (seems to) happens when the foil of bolt rope is damaged.
Is you bolt rope or foil damaged?
If so that is where you should start.

Any attachment (wireties, hanks, soft shackles) around the foil with dent , deform or kink the foil.
Which is what you are trying to avoid.

Very confusing.

gary
The head foil is relatively new and the storm jib has seen little use. It's indeed confusing as it contradicts the advice from UK sailmakers in the above link. "If you are using a headstay foil, lash the head and tack to the forestay. You can do this with spare sail ties or pieces of Spectra line. If you don’t lash these corners, the sail can pull out of the luff foil.". I guess they are less concerned about the damage to the foil.
 

MikeBz

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Could it be that the sail was intentionally made such that it could be used with a foil OR hanked onto a stay? I’d have thought it would be reasonable to have that versatility.
 
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