Genoa - crosscut vs radial

[Chae_73]

I'm buying a new headsail and contemplating the sailmaker's quotes. A tri-radial is 70% more than the basic cross cut spec but I'm inclined to go with it.

Worth it for a cruising boat?

 

[dunedin]

What size and type of boat, as that could make a significant difference - eg a boat with a biggish genoa will benefit most from a better headsail.

To be honest though, for a SAILING boat, my starting point would be the one place not to compromise is on the actual SAILS.

I am often amazed that people seem happy to spend fortunes on diesel engines, electronics, sound systems, electric heads, etc etc - and then persevere with clapped out old sails to save a few quid. Perhaps with the former priorities would be better to get a motor home.

PS. Our headsail is a North cruising laminate with foam luff (this last is essential)

 

[Chae_73]

It's a Westerly Storm 33'. Genoa will be approx 135%.

Yes, it will have a foam luff. I'm of the same mind that it makes sense to have good sails as what we want to is... Err... Sail.

 

[Javelin]

I have a North star cut using North's own dacron weave which allows such a cut.
Normal dacron bias usually only allows a cross cut but North developed their own that gets round this issue.
In theory at least the star or radial cut will hold a more stable shape and should also last a bit longer.
Time will tell but after three seasons my polars under jib alone are pretty much identical.

Dacron has a long slow decline in general.
Laminate sails tend to be a touch faster out of the bag but after two or three seasons they are about the same.
However Laminate sails performance tails off much faster than dacron.
So for racing or fast cruising Laminate is probably the way to go but knowing that any performance gain will be lost after a few seasons.
I expect my dacron sails should still be pretty good after six or seven years before noticeable drop off in performance.

My boat is a 34' masthead 3/4 tonner, very similar in performance to a Storm.
I use a 140% genny with a foam luff.

 

[Chae_73]

This won't be laminate, the fabric suggested is pro radial woven polyester.

 

[Chae_73]

This product, I think:

Premium Fibercon® Pro-High/Low Aspect - Contender Sailcloth

 

[Javelin]

Just checked when I bought my sails and it was Feb 2016!
So I missed a season which I guess given last year is to be expected!
Also the cut was 135%.
The spec was - 135% Furling Genoa NorDac Radian NDR 6.0 which at the time cost 2,299 plus the vat
Interestingly the main was £400 less even though it was made with a heavier material but the same radian cut.

 

[dunedin]

It's a Westerly Storm 33'. Genoa will be approx 135%.

Yes, it will have a foam luff. I'm of the same mind that it makes sense to have good sails as what we want to is... Err... Sail.

Thats on a lovely Ed Dubois designed hull isn’t it, with great sailing potential. Is it masthead rig, or is it fractional like the Fulmar (which was a brilliant sailing boat) ?
On a Dubois Westerly you will really appreciate the better sails.

 

[BabaYaga]

I had a triradial genoa from North nine years ago, same type as mentioned by Javelin, I think (NorDac Radian). It has stood up fine, so far.
When I talked to the North representative a couple of years ago, he mentioned that moulded cruising sails (like North's 3Di NorDac and others) had taken a large part of orders that used to be radial panelled sails. Not much of a price difference.
So perhaps consider these also?
29 ft boat, 135 %, circa 25 sq m.

 

[Derek ide]

Tri radial will be a better longer lasting sail.

 

[Chae_73]

Thanks all.

Yes, it's an Ed Dubios design, masthead rig.

I'm not looking at North, so I've no idea how much their sails are but this one is around £2.5k. It's from the same loft as the other sails on the boat, which we've not owned for long.

Edit: javelin, thanks - I do now have an idea what North costs. I guess that is over £3k in today's money.

 

[johnalison]

I am surprised that it is said that a laminate will deteriorate faster, because that is the reverse of my experience, though I am not up to date with the latest cloths. My Dacron sails have generally deteriorated after a few years of fairly light use but a laminate bought in 2003 lasted well with much heavier use, and its shape was still excellent when I replaced it after twelve years. My current laminate is about six years old and is still fine, though it has had less use as our cruising has eased.

 

[Concerto]

As a Fulmar owner who recently bought new sails from Kemp, I should add a few comments as I love trying to get the best performance out of my sails due to my old racing experiences. I would consider having a Vecktran sail cloth instead of a radial cut. It is stronger than a dacron with less stretch and should cost slightly less than a radial cut, but the expected life should be fairly similar. The Vecktran sails should have an expected life of about 15 to 20 years is what I have been told. My sails have been fairly well used over the past 5 years and show no lack of performance. When compared to the old dacron Hood sails, that were about 15 years old, there was a marked improvement in the shape of the sails. Another comment is how good are you at setting your sails to perform correctly, do you always ensure all tell tails are flying correctly all the time, if not do not waste your money on a more expensive radial cut as you will not get the benefit from the cut - a bit like buying a sports car and always driving within the speed limit. Any future owner will pay no more money for a boat with a radial cut genoa than a basic sail.

It might be worth reading this article by Kemp on sail cloth as they also comment on the cross cut and radial choice, laminates and Vecktran.
Kemp Sails| Sail Fabric

 

[flaming]

Dacron has a long slow decline in general.
Laminate sails tend to be a touch faster out of the bag but after two or three seasons they are about the same.
However Laminate sails performance tails off much faster than dacron.
So for racing or fast cruising Laminate is probably the way to go but knowing that any performance gain will be lost after a few seasons.
I expect my dacron sails should still be pretty good after six or seven years before noticeable drop off in performance.

This isn't correct I'm afraid.

Fresh out of the bag a dacron and a laminate sail will be very similar in performance, assuming they are the same shape to start with. However the laminate sail will retain that shape a lot better, where the dacron will stretch over time, starting with the 1st sail. So by the end of the 1st season there will be a noticeable difference which will only increase with time.

Dacron sails generally just wear and become stretched and baggy, until the owner gets annoyed at the poor performance of his boat and buys a new one. Laminate sails however will keep the good performance (from a cruising point of view at least) over the life of the sail, but when they wear out they fall apart.

Depending on what sort of performance fall off you would be prepared to accept before renewing your sails, it can be cheaper to use laminates.

For example, the boat I race on has a full suit of North 3Di carbon sails from 2016. The shape in all of them is still absolutely fine from the point of view of winning races at the level we sail at. So looking at about 4-5 seasons at least of competitive sailing with modern laminates without the mylar film. (As an aside, it was the original string sails with the mylar film that gave them their poor name for longevity).
When people raced with dacron, it was not unusual for top end boats to go through 2 or 3 mains a season, and a boat who wanted to win races at Cowes etc would need a new main and genoa every year as a minimum. If you go and look at race boat adds now and look at the list of sails that come with them you will see 2 or 3 year gaps between new sails, even on "top end" boats. Yes the 3Di and it's competitors are extremely expensive, but over the competitive life of the sail, it's proving pretty good value.

 

[Bobc]

I'm buying a new headsail and contemplating the sailmaker's quotes. A tri-radial is 70% more than the basic cross cut spec but I'm inclined to go with it.

Worth it for a cruising boat?

No. If you want to spend extra money, but a laminate sail.

 

[BabaYaga]

Depending on what sort of performance fall off you would be prepared to accept before renewing your sails, it can be cheaper to use laminates.

For example, the boat I race on has a full suit of North 3Di carbon sails from 2016. The shape in all of them is still absolutely fine from the point of view of winning races at the level we sail at. So looking at about 4-5 seasons at least of competitive sailing with modern laminates without the mylar film. (As an aside, it was the original string sails with the mylar film that gave them their poor name for longevity).

I have no experience of the more fancy sail materials at all, but for the sake of the discussion perhaps one should distinguish between laminates and composite moulded (molded?) sails? If I'm not mistaken '3Di' indicates the latter?

 

[Bobc]

As Flaming say, laminates keep their shape but eventually destroy themselves, whereas dacron gradually go baggy but last for ever.

Laminate sails don't like flogging and they don't like UV, so you need to treat them with some care (especially a genoa) to make sure you don't let it flog a lot, and you need to make sure that the sail is covered well (UV strip and also a cover). With mains, make sure that you zip the stackpack up every time after use.

A laminate genoa will probably give you 5 years of good service and they fall apart.

On a cruising boat I would either go for the cheap cross-cut dacron one on the basis that you can almost buy 2 for the price of a radial one (and 2 cross-cut ones will last longer), or go for a laminate sail and look after it.

 

[TLouth7]

I am often amazed that people seem happy to spend fortunes on diesel engines, electronics, sound systems, electric heads, etc etc - and then persevere with clapped out old sails to save a few quid. Perhaps with the former priorities would be better to get a motor home.

To be fair, sails are an order of magnitude more expensive than any of those other things except engines, and many of us also persevere with those long after they have reached their sell-by-date.

 

[Chae_73]

As a Fulmar owner who recently bought new sails from Kemp, I should add a few comments as I love trying to get the best performance out of my sails due to my old racing experiences. I would consider having a Vecktran sail cloth instead of a radial cut. It is stronger than a dacron with less stretch and should cost slightly less than a radial cut, but the expected life should be fairly similar. The Vecktran sails should have an expected life of about 15 to 20 years is what I have been told. My sails have been fairly well used over the past 5 years and show no lack of performance. When compared to the old dacron Hood sails, that were about 15 years old, there was a marked improvement in the shape of the sails. Another comment is how good are you at setting your sails to perform correctly, do you always ensure all tell tails are flying correctly all the time, if not do not waste your money on a more expensive radial cut as you will not get the benefit from the cut - a bit like buying a sports car and always driving within the speed limit. Any future owner will pay no more money for a boat with a radial cut genoa than a basic sail.

It might be worth reading this article by Kemp on sail cloth as they also comment on the cross cut and radial choice, laminates and Vecktran.
Kemp Sails| Sail Fabric

Thanks - useful web page from Kemp.

Regarding the sportscar analogy, I have no racing experience but I'm keen to get the best out of the boat, so I do intend to pay due attention to sail trim, and continue to learn.

 

[Daydream believer]

A laminate genoa will probably give you 5 years of good service and they fall apart.

I am on my 5Th foresail in 18 years the first ones are all dacron. They were not cheepo,s except the first, which was with the new boat. They are misshapen, the last is laminate . It has already lasted 6 years & is still an excellent shape.
No sign of breaking down & I hope that it will last next year at least. I normally do just under 2000 miles PA except last year when i did 900.
One thing that I do not do is let it flog. My mainsail is now my third one & is fibrecon.I have had that 4 years. if I am motoring I rarely motor with it just flapping as many sailors seem to do. The last 2 mainsails are dacron & have begun to loose shape.
Referring to the sports car analogy posted earlier- One does not have to break the speed limit because one has one. It is the smoothness of operation & the general handling that matters- or it did when i had my Morgan & I have not had a speeding ticket for 47 years, That was in a van
The worse sails I have ever had were Kemp. Poor cut & very poor after sales service