Friends Romans Countrymen Lend Me Your Oars.

Absolutely right. I call it the "Range Rover" principle.

People want the latest high tech nav kit etc for their boats just like their Range Rover must have 4wd, terrain response and low ratio.

Will they ever go offroad in the Range Rover? No.

Will they ever use 90% of the capibility of their £10K nav system? No.

Does it stop them buying it anyway? No.

I don't think people quite understand how this hobby works for most boat owners...
 
[ QUOTE ]

That is why, despite all the wailing and gnashing of teeth on here, in the real world it'll cause a bit of tutting on the first couple of non red fill ups and that'll be about it.


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree.
I am based in Swansea Marina - there are about 1100 boats in the Marina/Yacht club. yet there are only 3 or 4 over 55 feet.
There are only 3 for which the owner has spent over £600k. This is a very different picture to many Marinas in the Med.

The few bigger boats - one is for sale, I think the owner will not replace it. I know he has the same attitude as myself towards the marginal cost of a trip..

As for the rest of the almost 1100 boats - I know of many who know struggle to keep their boats and will now just have to get out of boating - many will hold position for a while whilst others will want to get out quick.

Most of these boat owners are not guppies - they have no big Xmas bonus to buy a flashy boat - they work hard and struggle to keep boating and do a lot of the work on the boats themselves. They will be very hard hit and it is those people that the market needs to keep up trading etc.

Cars are very much an image thing and whilst some boats are all about image - they are perceived differently by the market. You cannot compare land rover sales to boat sales.

Even if there is the minimal 20p per litre rise some will still have to get out of boating and behaviour will change. IMHO no more tax will be raised - tax yield will drop because of the depressed market - it only needs a 2$ drop in the marine business to wipe out more than every penny collected on fuel tax and the drop will be way beyond 2%.

At the end of the day I seem to live in an upside down world were I can watch stupid politicians taking my money and throwing it at problems rather than dealing with problems. A world were I am told that if I pay less tax on something I am being subsidised by other tax payers - the very basis of that argument implies that the government own all I earn and just lets me have part of it as a favour!!! A world where this sort of crazy tax change can be done in the name of harmonisation yet on fuel duty this government chooses not to harmonise.

I took my actions in going for an SD hull 2 years ago. I planned the boating to be done at much slower speeds with just the need to increase speed on the odd moment when I had to dash for a lock etc.

I really do feel sorry for those that have struggled so hard to keep their hobby going only to see it destroyed for no sane reason by a government that gives away power to the EU then washes it hands of responsibility for the resulting mess.

My trust in that government today borders on zero and I really do think that i am better able to spend my money than it can ever hope to achieve in spending it on my behalf.

There ... I feel a bit better now /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]

I took my actions in going for an SD hull 2 years ago. I planned the boating to be done at much slower speeds with just the need to increase speed on the odd moment when I had to dash for a lock etc.


[/ QUOTE ]

So what you are saying is that your reaction to the threat of loss of red diesel (now realised) was to buy a bigger more expensive boat? /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

This is exactly what I mean. Yes you've made a change but you've hardly thrown your hands in the air and given up boating have you?
 
I personally will make further changes like moving the boat over to the Med.
So my actions are not over yet. The boat type was just once choice in a seriesw of choices the net effect of which will be a tax loss to the UK.

With the weather etc there is a fine balance between where you keep your boat.
The UK now offers poor weather and high fuel prices - that has changed the balance and will stop people coming back to the UK as well as pushing more out of the UK.
 
We left along time ago 1989.and now the marina fees have rocketed to a staggering 1695 euros per year,( a little under £1200)for a 11.5 metre berth, I just don't know how you guys pay the fees they are asking in the solent area, it frightens me just reading about it!

although cll at Southampton are offering 12metre berths at £4300 or there abouts I read in an email a friend sent the other day
 
>>>
I don't think people quite understand how this hobby works for most boat owners...

--------------------
Ari
>>>

From my pov ari, you represent the people mentioned in the quote above. Below givesa an insight into my own vision of "most boat owners".

I belong to a club on the Thames. Instant image of glossy white gin palaces will pass htorugh the eyes of the ignorant, bigoted or politically motivated. There are of the order of 40 members boats, say 30 on the moorings and 10 elsewhere. The biggest and most valuable boats are probably a Broom 37, Fairline Sedan 32 and a Freeman 32. One of each. Lots of Seamaster 30s and smaller Seamasters, an elderly Broom 30, Senior 31s and so forth. Small Birchwoods and so forth. Mostly diesel inboards ranging from the ubiquitous 4107/8 up to AD41 in hp.. To all the members I know a "new" boat would mean "new to me" and not neccessarily 2nd user either. Being at Sunbury down the Tideway is easy, assuming your boat is suitable, and further down is fine, cruises to Chatham and East coast over the last couple of years. Upriver likewise. But I don't see anyone as "rich" or "well heeled" who might be a candidate for a new boat at LIBS, or has piles of dosh to spend on toys. I lent a hand held GPS to a fellow member for a Rochester trip a couple of months back because my boat has an ageing Navman 900 plotter, which I would have liked to update, but can't afford to. Friend's new to him boat meant he didn't have the needful for the GPS as well. Most servicing is done as DIY when possible, using member's expertise and club facilites. Broad range of members, young couples, familes and retired people.

No, we don't belong to a club to get Thames private pontoon moorings with power for £500 or so pa mooring fees and yes, we do most of the work ourselves, plus haulouts and what have you. It leaves money over for boat use. A summer cruise to Windsor may take 20 boats, a long weekend to London may take 5 or 10 more. I reckon last season wasn't as good for us as previously, about 35 nights on board and maybe 10 days out as well, only got down to London twice and as far as Rochester or Pangbourne. About 1000-1200l, on a 260l tank.

Ballpark running costs:
£300 licence
£550 mooring and membership
£150 isunrance
£50 parts (do my own servicing)
£1050
£750 fuel
£100 various mooring charges

Fuel makes up about 40% of the cost. If fuel becomes £1500, or 60% of the cost its insupportable, so use drops to 50% of previous. That either bottles me upstream of Teddington almost all year or restricts me to just doing the bits downstream and maybe a couple of weekends in Windsor. On a running use basis, the boat does a return Teddington to Chatham, with speed limits where appropriate, on about a tankful and cruise at 12-14 knots depending on lumpiness and kit on board, or at a max of 7 knots, half a tankful, but very long days.

If SWMBO is earning I reckon on roughly £200 pm disposable income, which also needs to put go juice in the car and clothes on children's backs etc. So its carefully budgeted and tends not to carry over from month to month unless we are very organised.

If I went abroad by boat, I estimate a return to Bruges, via Ramsgate and Dunkirk, would swallow about 4 or 5 tanks of fuel at 7 knots. If that costs well over £1000 then the relative costs of two adults and three kids to Malaga and freeloading off my parents in Mijas for a fortnight starts to look worth exploring, and at that stage the justification of tying up £18K or so in a boat begins to collapse.

But we love boating. My son of 12 is quite capable of taking charge except in a lock, where I won't leave him on the wheel to keep the insurance happy. having to be able to read signs for his myopic Dad has forced his reading along, depsite dyslexia Both my daughters will helm if they are allowed to. SWMBO and girly friends can watch the universe turn through a glass of G&T... We won't give up unless forced, but the absolute level of force may not be very high.

There you are ari, my experience of most boaters.
 
[ QUOTE ]
That is the reality, like it or not. The second-hand boats out there back that up.


[/ QUOTE ]

You may be right with sub 25ft boats or the larger boats but I don't think so with the 30' - 45'

700hrs in five years for us on our current boat
 
[ QUOTE ]
If you're that tight against the wall you're not going to be boating much longer anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ari In response to a similar post you made.


Andrew don't know why you bother, this guy/gal is enjoying the present cafuffle.
 
[ QUOTE ]
>>>
I don't think people quite understand how this hobby works for most boat owners...

--------------------
Ari
>>>

From my pov ari, you represent the people mentioned in the quote above. Below givesa an insight into my own vision of "most boat owners".

I belong to a club on the Thames. Instant image of glossy white gin palaces will pass htorugh the eyes of the ignorant, bigoted or politically motivated. There are of the order of 40 members boats, say 30 on the moorings and 10 elsewhere. The biggest and most valuable boats are probably a Broom 37, Fairline Sedan 32 and a Freeman 32. One of each. Lots of Seamaster 30s and smaller Seamasters, an elderly Broom 30, Senior 31s and so forth. Small Birchwoods and so forth. Mostly diesel inboards ranging from the ubiquitous 4107/8 up to AD41 in hp.. To all the members I know a "new" boat would mean "new to me" and not neccessarily 2nd user either. Being at Sunbury down the Tideway is easy, assuming your boat is suitable, and further down is fine, cruises to Chatham and East coast over the last couple of years. Upriver likewise. But I don't see anyone as "rich" or "well heeled" who might be a candidate for a new boat at LIBS, or has piles of dosh to spend on toys. I lent a hand held GPS to a fellow member for a Rochester trip a couple of months back because my boat has an ageing Navman 900 plotter, which I would have liked to update, but can't afford to. Friend's new to him boat meant he didn't have the needful for the GPS as well. Most servicing is done as DIY when possible, using member's expertise and club facilites. Broad range of members, young couples, familes and retired people.

No, we don't belong to a club to get Thames private pontoon moorings with power for £500 or so pa mooring fees and yes, we do most of the work ourselves, plus haulouts and what have you. It leaves money over for boat use. A summer cruise to Windsor may take 20 boats, a long weekend to London may take 5 or 10 more. I reckon last season wasn't as good for us as previously, about 35 nights on board and maybe 10 days out as well, only got down to London twice and as far as Rochester or Pangbourne. About 1000-1200l, on a 260l tank.

Ballpark running costs:
£300 licence
£550 mooring and membership
£150 isunrance
£50 parts (do my own servicing)
£1050
£750 fuel
£100 various mooring charges

Fuel makes up about 40% of the cost. If fuel becomes £1500, or 60% of the cost its insupportable, so use drops to 50% of previous. That either bottles me upstream of Teddington almost all year or restricts me to just doing the bits downstream and maybe a couple of weekends in Windsor. On a running use basis, the boat does a return Teddington to Chatham, with speed limits where appropriate, on about a tankful and cruise at 12-14 knots depending on lumpiness and kit on board, or at a max of 7 knots, half a tankful, but very long days.

If SWMBO is earning I reckon on roughly £200 pm disposable income, which also needs to put go juice in the car and clothes on children's backs etc. So its carefully budgeted and tends not to carry over from month to month unless we are very organised.

If I went abroad by boat, I estimate a return to Bruges, via Ramsgate and Dunkirk, would swallow about 4 or 5 tanks of fuel at 7 knots. If that costs well over £1000 then the relative costs of two adults and three kids to Malaga and freeloading off my parents in Mijas for a fortnight starts to look worth exploring, and at that stage the justification of tying up £18K or so in a boat begins to collapse.

But we love boating. My son of 12 is quite capable of taking charge except in a lock, where I won't leave him on the wheel to keep the insurance happy. having to be able to read signs for his myopic Dad has forced his reading along, depsite dyslexia Both my daughters will helm if they are allowed to. SWMBO and girly friends can watch the universe turn through a glass of G&T... We won't give up unless forced, but the absolute level of force may not be very high.

There you are ari, my experience of most boaters.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'll note I said "most".

Have a walk around any south coast marina in August, note how expensive the boats are and how many are out at sea vs sat in the marina.

Sure there are some that really use their boats, but not many. As I said above, look at used boat engine hours. A 1997 boat with over 1,000 hours would be deemed to have unusually high hours, well above norm. That is 100 hours a year.

That is not opinion, that is fact.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you're that tight against the wall you're not going to be boating much longer anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ari In response to a similar post you made.


Andrew don't know why you bother, this guy/gal is enjoying the present cafuffle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong.

He/she is simply trying to inject a little realism and common sense into the situation with a few basic facts and figures.

But you all seem to be enjoying the hysteria too much so I'll guess I'll bow out of this one. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
Ari
Doi not bow out - I disagree with you but I am sure your views are sincere and you have every right to express them.

As regards the expesnive boats in South Coast Marinas there are some there that never go out. There are some people that buy a boat on the understanding that depreciation is slow etc - all that has very much changed.

What keeps MoBos going is the army of people who struggle to keep their hobby going. Without that army of people there is no market.

I know that the trade at present is very slow - forget the show hype - the trade is struggling. The end of derogation will hit it hard and will benefit nobody - that is the sad thing about it.
 
[ QUOTE ]
But you all seem to be enjoying the hysteria too much so I'll guess I'll bow out of this one

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to me it's you who's enjoying it! But glad you've bowed out.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But you all seem to be enjoying the hysteria too much so I'll guess I'll bow out of this one

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to me it's you who's enjoying it! But glad you've bowed out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you like to explain that comment please? /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
Ari
Doi not bow out - I disagree with you but I am sure your views are sincere and you have every right to express them.

[/ QUOTE ]

My views are sincere however it is clear that not everyone feels I have the right to express them (or more pertinently perhaps, to disagree with their views). See above.

[ QUOTE ]


What keeps MoBos going is the army of people who struggle to keep their hobby going. Without that army of people there is no market.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maytbe it's differnet in Wales where you are, but seriously Gludy, there aren't many people struggling to run their boats on the south coast. If it were that much of a struggle, why bother? It's a hobby at the end of the day and an expensive one at that. Always has been.

[ QUOTE ]

I know that the trade at present is very slow - forget the show hype - the trade is struggling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with you there, and the brokerage market in particular. But I personally feel that is indicative of the UK market generally, high street is struggling, car sales are struggling, everyone is struggling. And this has been quietly going on for a couple of years now. I personally think that this is down to the monumental amounts of borrowing (often against rising equity in houses) at grass roots level that has been fuelling the retail market. I'm not talking about boat buyers necessarily, but they (generally) have businesses of their own and if those businesses are finding customers more scarce then buying a new(er) or bigger boat is probably not number one priority. I actually think that this country is in for a big financial shock. I think that payback time for the massive house value boom is just around the corner.

[ QUOTE ]
The end of derogation will hit it hard and will benefit nobody - that is the sad thing about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It will benefit nobody, I quite agree. But it won't hit hard. Other factors might, but fuel is such a small part of such an expensive sport that it really will not have a great deal of affect in most cases
 
18149966_bb4e54084a.jpg


Taken not 10minutes walking from the pub /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

Now if I suggested that was a lake with a capacity for about 8 boats and loads of trout would I be anywhere near right?
 
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