First boat, what to buy?

[Big-Bang1]

Centaurs do sail quite well, but they need a bit of skill to get them to perform, and are not remotely exciting. They are though possibly amongst the most reassuringly solid boats of their size. If you are happy sailing a scaled-up version of a planing dinghy and young and flexible enough you cope with the accommodation, a Super Seal or Parker is a superb boat.

I'll take that as a compliment I have a 1979 Centaur that we have had for a few years. It regularly sits between 5.5 and 6 knots under sail alone and I have been caught out in some horrible weather and never has it felt unsafe. It just batters on. I sail with my wife and there children (14,12 & 9) and there is enough space onboard for us all along with enough gear for a weekend away. A cockpit tent is a godsend and we use it loads at anchor. Yes it;s not the fastest or most exciting 26 footer but it is very sold and safe feeling with a cockpit that stays dry.
Prior to this we had a Leisure 23SL * that was a great boat but we found that whilst it had enough bunks for the 5 of us it didn't have enough space for the 5 of us and enough gear for a few nights away. It was also rather tender to sail, leaning over with the slightest gust and my wife wasn't keen on that.
For what it's worth we looked at a Hunter horizon 26 and the Newbridge Pioneer. The Hunter had a very spacious feeling with it's modern open plan layout but it didn't feel as though you were sat in the cockpit rather on it and the Newbridge would have been my boat of choice from looks, build and internal volume right up to the point we sailed it and we preferred the solid Centaur.
HTH

* Our 23SL had an outboard fitted to the transom, perhaps with the weight of an inboard diesel and sail drive leg it would have been very different?

 

[Seajet]

The Leisure 23 is to put it kindly ' not a performer ' to windward talking from a cruising expectation, certainly not a racing one - several people in my club have had them.

A boat that size shouldn't need the crippling weight, expense and loss of stowage space of a diesel.

 

[Big-Bang1]

The Leisure 23 is to put it kindly ' not a performer ' to windward talking from a cruising expectation, certainly not a racing one - several people in my club have had them.

A boat that size shouldn't need the crippling weight, expense and loss of stowage space of a diesel.

You are right in what you say about performance but she was still a good sound boat to sail and spacious enough for 2 adults plus 3 nippers. I was however trying to point out that it's handling may have been less sensitive with the low slung weight of an inboard that it was designed to have rather than having an outboard hung on the back. Perhaps it's rather bulbous shape that allows it 5'11" of head room in a 23' boat has something to do with it??.

 

[Seajet]

Big-Bang1,

you don't get that headroom for free re keeping going in stiff weather, and I have also observed these boats making a great deal of leeway in untrying conditions.

Obviously I am biased to my boat's format - deep heavy ballast keel when lowered, outboard in a well so it's accessible and the prop doesn't pitch out in waves - engine changes rather easier and cheaper than diesels too - but it works well and she still has all the room one could reasonably expect for 22'.

Next season will be our 40th, though I have had other larger boats as well.

I reckon the cut-off point where outboards become silly and diesels make sense is around 25' - smaller than that, invest any weight in properly placed deeper ballast.

 

[Koyukano]

I'm putting my Westerly Pageant up for sale shortly. It would definitely suit a first timer, plus it's got about the same headroom as a Centaur (I had one). Nice inboard engine, and it's berthed in Hartlepool. PM if you'd like to look her over.

Thanks for the offer but I am not in a position where I'd be looking to purchase anytime soon and I wouldn't want to waste your time giving you that impression. Wouldn't mind popping in just to have a look at a pageant when I start coming down to the marina though...if you don't mind!

Still tempted by a centaur I think it's a good size and having a boat that is safe and will perhaps allow me to make some mistakes without beating me up too much for it would be good. I do like the look of Hunter Horizons though and think the layout in them is quite modern and again only from what I have read these are a litte better performance wise than a centaur.

Not told the Mrs i'm buying a boat yet though.......best buy her some chocolates before I broach the subject

 

[Seajet]

Absolute Top Tip I learned the hard way; whichever boat you look at, lay down on the bunks to try them, interiors can be very deceptive visually.

I bought a Carter 30 with a very seaworthy looking interior then we found the saloon berth one side was so narrow I daren't turn over, and the folding dinette double the other side was 1.7 people long and 1.5 people wide.My A22 has wide 6'4 & 6'7 bunks and a forecabin I shared for a 3 week cruise with my fiancee in - and a chum in the saloon, we are both around 5'9".

So size of boat has little relation to bunk comfort, I find good sitting headroom the most important - any boat below 35' with lots of standing headroom will mean caravan like windage, not good when the going gets tough.

Later on a certain boat you mention with an aft cabin, I and my chum tried laying in the bunks; in the aft one the rudder post between occupants would be a sort of medieval passion killer, and our heads were below feet.

The cockpit lockers were necessarily tiny and the cockpit sole so high as to feel like being on stage, not good in stiff weather.

 

[lpdsn]

Still tempted by a centaur I think it's a good size and having a boat that is safe and will perhaps allow me to make some mistakes without beating me up too much for it would be good. I do like the look of Hunter Horizons though and think the layout in them is quite modern and again only from what I have read these are a litte better performance wise than a centaur.

Not told the Mrs i'm buying a boat yet though.......best buy her some chocolates before I broach the subject

Shipping a boat in from outside the area is going to cost one way or another, whether paying to bring it in by road or sailing it, so in the end you are probably constrained to buying whatever good condition example of something that you can find on the NE English coast.

The main advantage of a Centaur is that they are more of a commodity than most designs of their age so are easier to sell than a less well-known type of boat.

 

[aquaplane]

The main advantage of a Centaur is that they are more of a commodity than most designs of their age so are easier to sell than a less well-known type of boat.

I found that when selling my Centaur. I told the bloke to look for a common boat like a Centaur that he could sell on easy if he didn't like it, even though I thought it was too small for him and his dog to live on, but he bought it.

 

[Seajet]

The great things about Centaurs are they are a very good design which will look after one and get to places, and there are loads of them so a better chance than with any other boat of finding a decent one in your area.

The disadvantage, which I'd count as quite a severe snag in a first boat especially for someone without much dinghy experience, is that the Centaur is very unrewarding to sail with virtually no feedback on the helm - even when well trimmed and going well there's little or no ' feel ', they just go where pointed.

Excellent cruisers with an autohelm on the go - and beware the long cranked tiller makes the big cockpit seem very small - but a more responsive boat would be a better trainer / first cruiser, even if less roomy - people go for much too big starter boats now then wonder why they can't handle a boat at close quarters or in strong winds.

 

[jwilson]

The great things about Centaurs are they are a very good design which will look after one and get to places, and there are loads of them so a better chance than with any other boat of finding a decent one in your area.

The disadvantage, which I'd count as quite a severe snag in a first boat especially for someone without much dinghy experience, is that the Centaur is very unrewarding to sail with virtually no feedback on the helm - even when well trimmed and going well there's little or no ' feel ', they just go where pointed.

Excellent cruisers with an autohelm on the go - and beware the long cranked tiller makes the big cockpit seem very small - but a more responsive boat would be a better trainer / first cruiser, even if less roomy - people go for much too big starter boats now then wonder why they can't handle a boat at close quarters or in strong winds.

All agreed, particularly about the "feel" of the helm. Centaurs are now going down in value as the "new to cruising" market seems to want wheel steering, big aft double berths and hot water. nevertheless a good example ie with renewed engine and decent headlinings and cushions, is an awful lot of very seaworthy boat for the money.

But there are lots of others - just buy a good example of whatever. And if you see a design you have not heard of but like the look of, ask here about it.

 

[STOL71]

Absolute Top Tip I learned the hard way; whichever boat you look at, lay down on the bunks to try them, interiors can be very deceptive visually.

I bought a Carter 30 with a very seaworthy looking interior then we found the saloon berth one side was so narrow I daren't turn over, and the folding dinette double the other side was 1.7 people long and 1.5 people wide.My A22 has wide 6'4 & 6'7 bunks and a forecabin I shared for a 3 week cruise with my fiancee in - and a chum in the saloon, we are both around 5'9".

So size of boat has little relation to bunk comfort, I find good sitting headroom the most important - any boat below 35' with lots of standing headroom will mean caravan like windage, not good when the going gets tough.

Later on a certain boat you mention with an aft cabin, I and my chum tried laying in the bunks; in the aft one the rudder post between occupants would be a sort of medieval passion killer, and our heads were below feet.

The cockpit lockers were necessarily tiny and the cockpit sole so high as to feel like being on stage, not good in stiff weather.

Agree, that have to try out the bunks before buying.

There are plenty of boats with deep cockpit soles that offer standing headroom without a lot of windage, especially long keelers that are also a lot of fun to sail. Thinking of the Cutlass 27 (5'8" headroom), Bowman 26 (6'2"headroom). A good example of either type can be bought for well under £10K.

 

[lpdsn]

All agreed, particularly about the "feel" of the helm. Centaurs are now going down in value as the "new to cruising" market seems to want wheel steering, big aft double berths and hot water. nevertheless a good example ie with renewed engine and decent headlinings and cushions, is an awful lot of very seaworthy boat for the money.

Let's be honest though, a Centaur is roughly the sea-going equivalent of a Ford Anglia. No one buys those any more.

They've got plus points. I wouldn't say well-constructed as they come from the 'To hell with the design calculations slap another layer of glass and resin on' school of boat building but they are heavily-constructed. The accommodation is not at all bad for the size and age of the boat. And they are a bilge keeler if that's what you want. (The OP could look at what Dylan Winter did in a small bilge keeler on the Northumbrian coast to see whether or not that is what you want - see You Tube and search keep turning left). And as I said above they're easier to sell than a less well-known model, said Dylan Winter sold two quite quickly.

Performance is a very ill-defined term. Trying to get a yachtsman to say a boat he's liked doesn't sail well is like trying to get a mother to say her baby is ugly. It's all horses for courses. Personally I think a Pogo performs quite well for a cruiser (but a new one is out of my price bracket and people don't sell them second hand) whereas a Centaur certainly turns an owner into a gentleman as neither like going to windward.

 

[Seajet]

If you know how to trim sails a Centaur goes to windward very happily; they gained a poor reputation for two reasons -

a big engine for the time, so people thought ' must be a motorsailer ' - in fact it was just because Westerly were offered a good deal by Volvo

And as it was a good deal a lot of novices bought them.

In the right hands a Centaur is quite potent, but what it is not is rewarding to helm, no feedback feel on the tiller.

 

[steveej]

So, I was in a similar position in 2014 when the first of the nippers arrived and I decided I needed to reinvent myself into a more family friendly person.

My approach can be summarized as follows:

1. Get some basic training
2. Get some experience crewing
3. After 1 & 2, decide whether sailing is even a realistic project as it has a reputation for being a rich mans game and I am no millionaire.
4. Commit fully or find something else to do with my life.

It was March and I couldn't get a dinghy course due to time of year so found a start yachting weekend on the solent for £150 went back to do comp crew and dayskipper after some experience crewing for a mate around w.scotland. The week in Scotland was cheap because you share the cost of the charter and travel with other paying adults, worked out about £1.50/NM

I realized pretty early on that crewing was boring but I loved skippering. I was also quick to realize that boat ownership was really a lifestyle and not something you could dip in and out of (unless of course your a millionaire)

The DS ticket allowed me to charter both in the UK and Med and by now we had a second nipper on the way.

At this point I went with 'fully commit' with goals of YM offshore and the purchase of a boat for family sailing.

I bought a Hurley 22 at the end of 2015, spent pretty much every weekend through the winter refitting everything (and I mean everything) and sailing it the following season with friends and family but not with the kids. It was a great seaworthy boat and if it was just me I would have kept it but the boat was far too small, not safe enough or stable enough for young children/toddlers so it was sold 12 months later. Bought for £2k, + £4k refit, then sold for £2.5k - it is a buyers market. I took all the new life jackets, dinghy, outboard with me for the next boat so cost per nautical mile (taking account mooring fees etc) - £5/mile. It was a massive learning experience and I think value for money for what the process gave me. It also confirmed that there were people out there doing this very real 'grass roots' sailing on micro budgets and doing some pretty impressive passages. I also met a lot of 'Dreamers' along the way so beware.

Med charters are fantastic holidays but with a budget boat around 36ft, flights, spending money they cost me about £2.5k all in for about 100 miles so £25/mile and we have only ever gone in spring or autumn, never the height of summer for cost reasons. We have always had plenty of wind and quite a few rough days.

When it is rough, the wife and kids normally go to one of the quarter berths and get to sleep, which you could never do with the Hurley. You cant leave toddlers in the saloon when it is rough because they will be thrown around the cabin and hurt themselves. The cabins also have doors on which means you don't have to go to bed at the same time as them. You have much more space, which you need with all the nappies, toys, swimming gear etc

I always found the AWB charter boats 36ft easier to sail than the 22ft Hurley, easier to reef, easier to park!, easier to reverse, easier to cook a meal and get a cold beer, faster, more stable, far more forgiving the list goes on and on....

School Mile builders can also be good value for experience at about £1.50/mile in my experience.

Offshore racing too at about £1.50/mile.

We have decided to skip the next logical step which would have been a 30ft boat 30 years old because I do not want to do all the refit again at great time and expense to be left with a 40 year old boat that is then difficult to sell and worth peanuts. We are due to remortgage in the new year and will be going down the AWB production boat route, 15 years old 35ft ish.

I would not advise you to do this yet. We have spent ALL of our free time and money since 2014 on sailing trips, the full selection of RYA courses upto YM Offshore, Greece, Turkey, France, Channel Islands, Bristol Channel, Solent, West Country, Ireland, Scotland on a wide variety of boats. We still feel we are novices having only been doing it for 3 years but at least now feel we have enough knowledge and experience to know what we are getting into.

The little boat experience was highly valuable and got me skippering regularly and got me through my YM. But it was not going to work for the misses and kids the age they are now (2 and 4 today!)

Hope this is helpful.

 

[lpdsn]

If you know how to trim sails a Centaur goes to windward very happily; ...

Although if you know how to trim sails most boats go to windward better.

I'm just trying to allow the OP to gain an accurate understanding of what he's looking at. A Centaur has advantages that might suit the OP very well and it might be the ideal boat for him, and I've pointed him in the direction of KTL to show him what could be done with a small bilge keeler, but I just think it is unfair to try to give him the impression that a Centaur is a performant boat.

Rest assured if he was looking at buying, say, a half-tonner of similar vintage because he wanted something that went to windward faster I'd try to be fair in pointing out the downside of such a design.

 

[Koyukano]

Wow that was really helpful, thanks steeveej! Sadly the other half is not that keen on sailing so it would be just me until I could perhaps tempt her on a calm day out with a few beers to keep her happy! Oh and thanks for the advice lpdsn I've actually watched a lot of his videos already having searched for centaur videos on Youtube to get a look inside, his videos were well done I think.

Definitely not rich so I think I will have to be careful with what boat I do get in the end, but I have a modest income and don't spend much at all on leisure other than £2 a week for a 5 a side on a Sunday (great price I know!), so I do have the budget for maintenance and berthing etc.

You guys have all been really helpful, it is much appreciated. I was wondering how long keel boats are different to normal keels. I have researched bilge keels versus fin and feel I understand the benefits for each, but any advice on long keels would also be welcome. All I have been able to gather so far is they are more difficult to handle at low speed due to drifting? Not even sure if that is correct or not and that the long keel offers some protection to the rudder which again makes sense. Are long keel boats better at saling to windward then?

 

[Tranona]

Long keel boats are developments of earlier, mainly wooden built boats. They were popular for about 20 years from 1960's in the transition to GRP construction. Then designers discovered that GRP allowed the construction of different shaped hulls and over a very short period, keels became detached from rudders then became foils that were attached to wider flatter hulls and separate rudders, all of which led to better performance (along with better rigs) and more accommodation.

So the downside of long keel boats are narrow deep hulls, lower performance particularly in light airs, difficult at low speed under motor. Claimed advantages are steady motion, seakeeping in adverse conditions, comfort and better aesthetics. All of these are of course generalisations, but you get the picture.

Very few of such boats have been built in the last 20 years which might give you an idea of the popularity - at least amongst new boat buyers. Now being old many are in their twilight years, but they still have a good following as they have proved very suitable boats, particularly if your aim is all weather sailing.

 

[rptb1]

What people want and need from a boat varies a lot with age. Bear that in mind when reading advice.

Sail other people's boats a lot.

Small boats are cheap to buy, cheap to run, cheap to modify, and fun. Single-handing is great.

 

[STOL71]

Long keel boats are developments of earlier, mainly wooden built boats. They were popular for about 20 years from 1960's in the transition to GRP construction. Then designers discovered that GRP allowed the construction of different shaped hulls and over a very short period, keels became detached from rudders then became foils that were attached to wider flatter hulls and separate rudders, all of which led to better performance (along with better rigs) and more accommodation.

So the downside of long keel boats are narrow deep hulls, lower performance particularly in light airs, difficult at low speed under motor. Claimed advantages are steady motion, seakeeping in adverse conditions, comfort and better aesthetics. All of these are of course generalisations, but you get the picture.

Very few of such boats have been built in the last 20 years which might give you an idea of the popularity - at least amongst new boat buyers. Now being old many are in their twilight years, but they still have a good following as they have proved very suitable boats, particularly if your aim is all weather sailing.

Historically, most sailing yachts were long keel boats with non-corroding led ballast in their keels. GRP came along and long keel boats with encapsulated led keels were built. Margins dropped and the long keel was replaced with an iron fin keel stuck under a beamier hull to increase room for accommodation. By the wayside fell sailing performance, sea keeping and safety. Long keelers have more drag in the water, hence need more canvass, but that doesn't mean they are not performing well in light winds. Fewer long keel boats are being built, as most boats nowadays are built on the cheap for the charter market. Long keelers still being built are Rustlers, Halberg Russeys, Nordic Folkboat to name a few.

 

[lpdsn]

I have researched bilge keels versus fin and feel I understand the benefits for each, but any advice on long keels would also be welcome. All I have been able to gather so far is they are more difficult to handle at low speed due to drifting? Not even sure if that is correct or not and that the long keel offers some protection to the rudder which again makes sense. Are long keel boats better at saling to windward then?

Long keelers are more traditional in design. They feel steadier and more comfortable but are often designed to sail at much larger angles of heel, dipping the rail at times. They are very directionally stable and it takes a lot of rudder to alter course (prized by some) and can be sailed OK at low speeds. The advantage of that is the helming requires less focus (compared to say a modern racer where the helmsman is expected to concentrate and can make tiny tweaks in course with small movements but will quickly stray off course if their mind wanders).

Long-keelers can be difficult to manouvre under engine in confined spaces particularly in astern - they were designed when most boats were kept on moorings..

Windward performance is mediocre. You'll notice that very little (virtually no) serious or semi-serious racing involves long keelers (J class an obvious exception).

The rudder is usually mounted on the keel (where it is protected but doesn't work that efficiently as a rudder) or on the transition designs of the 60s or therabouts on a separate skeg - slightly less protected and slightly better for steering, but nothing like as efficient as a modern design.

Boat design, particularly the foils (keel and rudder), has benefitted greatly from advances in aircraft foil design since WWII. Long keelers pre-date that (I sometimes suspect their proponents haven't quite accepted heavier than air flight yet). That said, if a long-keel design suits you, go for it. They certainly look nicer.

Note: I, like absolutely everyone else, have my own bias. I've raced a lot and am interested in performance even when cruising. rptb1's advice is good. Sail a lot of other people's boats and find what sort of boat matches your own biases.