First 345 vs First 35S5

[tchierici]

I am looking to upgrade from an old IOR 32ft cruiser/racer to a more spacious and capable 34ft to 36ft budget of £30k max. I am looking some a solid boat of vintage construction quality that I can comfortably cruise as a couple with an extra cabin for the odd guest. I like sailing for fun so something that I can sail hard and fast but safely in any conditions is high on the list. I mainly sail in the Med but it's a very strong possibility that I'll be heading to the Caribbean and beyond in 10 years. There are a couple of boats that hit the right notes, the First 345 and First 35S5. I know I am probably comparing apples and pears but I just wonder what people think of these boats, pros and cons?
The interior moulding (which makes it harder to access every part of the boat) and low ballast ratio of the 35s5 are a bit off putting but they seems sturdy boats. The First 345 I really like to purposeful look of it but I am a bit concerned about the lightness of displacement, it could be a lively ride across the Atlantic and back.

 

[E39mad]

I used to race Beneteau of that era back in the late 80's early 90's and worked for Ancasta the Beneteau agent for a year.

The 345 was reportedly the sweet spot of the mid sized boats of their time. Like many Firsts of that era you could get keep keel or shoal draft versions and tall rig options. A deep lead keel has to be the preference. The rig size does not matter so much - both were masthead. Fit out was pretty good for a production boat with quite a lot of solid teak down below.

The 35s5 was the successor and whilst faster it was an acquired taste with the Phillipe Stark interior. Dark mahogany and teak were the options and not much if any solid wood around. The galley is not that big. The rig become fractional and the Z spar original mast a little flexible despite swept back spreaders. A couple of rigs were lost in hard racing with the kite up in over 30 knots of wind in the Solent. Having said that I seem to remember two of them doing a round Britain successfully. Not sure if there were any keel options on these.

Both capable of transatlantic with some modifications. Tanks are small and the rig might want "beefing up" a bit.

 

[tchierici]

the rig might want "beefing up" a bit.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks, what do you mean by "beefing up"? The 345 has an additional running stay to help stabilise the mast. The 35S5 has a huge main and a small genoa on a swept back fractional rig so I presume just deep reefing the main and a small jib should keep it manageable in heavy conditions. How do they both behave running downwind and beating up in heavy weather?

 

[E39mad]

Frankly on the 35s5 I'd want a thicker mast section as it tended to pump in heavy weather. Both sail on all points very well especially with the deeper keel as mentioned earlier. You'll need a good autopilot/self steering and sail set up for ocean sailing otherwise hand steering could become tedious.

 

[Bobc]

Can't comment too much on the 35s5, other than to say that all the ones I looked at had silicone gob around the windows, so that's obviously a common problem with them. They are certainly quick boats.

We had a First 345 from 1999 for about 5 or 6 years. Last time I saw it was in Chichester Marina a couple of years ago and was still looking fab.

I have always been impressed with the 345 as having a nice mix of pace and comfort. I actually used to moor it alongside a Sigma 36 and you couldn't tell the difference from 100yds, the hull and deck shape was virtually identical.

The rig was nicely balanced, and it pointed very well. Always felt solid and well built. Ours was the shallow draft, and we regularly raced another one with the deeper draft, and there was really very little to choose, performance-wise.

We liked the long hatch glass, which makes the saloon nice and bright.

This is our old girl

 

[tchierici]

This is our old girl
[/QUOTE]


That's a nice picture thanks!
If anyone knows of a 345 for sale with a recent engine and sails let me know.

 

[E39mad]

IIRC the s5 and f5 First models had solid rod rigging rather than wire. Great for lack of stretching but a pain in the neck if you loose your rig over the side as you can't cut it with bolt croppers.

 

[tchierici]

IIRC the s5 and f5 First models had solid rod rigging rather than wire. Great for lack of stretching but a pain in the neck if you loose your rig over the side as you can't cut it with bolt croppers.

The 345 has a keel stepped mast as well I think which should make it a sturdier set up. By the sound of it the 345 could be a safer option just based on the rigging set up.

 

[Bobc]

The 345 has a keel stepped mast as well I think which should make it a sturdier set up. By the sound of it the 345 could be a safer option just based on the rigging set up.

Our 345 had a deck stepped mast, with an aluminium post from deck to keel

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

The 345 has a keel stepped mast as well I think which should make it a sturdier set up. By the sound of it the 345 could be a safer option just based on the rigging set up.

Pretty sure it's deck stepped. (Not that it makes 'that' much difference).

Shoulda read Bob's post...

 

[tjbrace]

Had our 38s5 for the past 15 seasons. Lovely boat, I guess the 35s5 is a smaller version.
We are decked stepped with a ss pole to the keel.

 

[dunedin]

Don’t know much about the 35S5, but the First 345 was an amazing boat. Lovely to sail, and good interior.
They will be getting on a bit now, but I would think the basic structure is more of a solid sea-boat than the later one.

At least one First 345 was cruised regularly up in high latitudes, even amongst the ice - Google Cloud Walker

 

[ashtead]

Don’t know where you are looking but I seem to recall the 35s5 was a charter boat so might have been hard raced ? I think I would be avoiding any rod rigging at that size as well.

 

[wully1]

The 345 was on my list of boats to downsize to as I’d previously owned a 375 and a 38 that were great boats - especially the First 38. If you can find a good one - or don’t mind putting the work and money in to make it good -then you’ll have a good,solid, well performing boat.
I couldn’t find one, didn’t have the patience to wait so bought a Westerly Storm which I’m very happy with.

 

[tchierici]

What’s the 345 displacement? I see contradicting numbers around? Sailboat data states 4600kg but other sites say 5100kg. That’s a big difference.

 

[jonrarit]

ooh I qualify to answer this one having sailed on a 35S5 and I own a First 345 as well.

I crewed (foredeck) on the 345 for 15+ years. When the skipper mentioned she was for sale I bought her and have owned her for the last 10 years extensively cruising the west coast of Scotland. She sails beautifully and easily 2 up but is just as happy with 5 on board for our "boys" weeks. She sits "in" the water as opposed to "on" the water of the more modern yachts of a similar size but the price paid is of course less room below in particular head room but being only 5' 6" it's not an issue for me. She easily cruises at 6 knots but will go faster if pushed. She has a deep keel and deep rudder which are ideal for the West coast. The Beret design was before CAD era of computers so is heavier but that gives you the reassurance of a solid boat in rough weather. I upgraded the engine from 18hp to 29hp which made a big difference when motoring into a lumpy sea. She was designed as a "cruiser/racer" and is still very much fit for both purposes. People still comment on how good she looks and guests are often surprised at how well she sails.... and she's 35 years old now!

My experience of a 35S5 was on an 18 month old yacht on a blue water race to Southern Ireland. She came from the early era of CAD design which made her lighter and more roomy than the 345 predecessor however we suffered severe structural failure off Tuskar Rock. The forward stringers came away leading to failure of both forward and main bulkheads. What followed was 9 hours of terrifying cracking fibreglass with the coastguard on standby, as we limped into southern Ireland and a safe haven. The takeaway from it all was while the design and construction of the 35S5 was sound, there was no redundancy built in should any of the critical components fail and when they did what followed was a cascade failure of the other components.

CAD design and manufacturing has vastly improved over the decades since but you have to remember when these boats (and others of that era) were designed back in the early 90's it was early days of computer design for mass production boats and yes they were lighter but at the cost of inherent strength.

The boat in question was repaired which led to another set of problems (another story) however they must have been resolved as she is still about today. I won't mention her name though.

Given the choice between the two, the 345 is the more seaworthy vessel in my experience.

 

[jonrarit]

Some pics of my 345

 

[GBR389]

I would tend to agree with Jonrarit I currently own a 35s5 (first yacht after many years racing dinghy's). The 35s5 (well the one i have ) is a fast boat but more for round the cans i would not like to do an extended offshore passage in her as the flat section in front of the keel slams quite badly in a large chop. And i know that Beneteau had to come and repair the front stringers on my boat (hey may be the same one SJ). Also i know that the mast has at some point been replaced on my boat and the keel pan repaired so she must have had a hard life in the past.

But that said i have won races against newer boats and she has looked after us for the last 5 years mainly used for cruising with the Scottish series being our annual racing outing.