Failed topping lift fitting

[EdgarP]

Hi there.

I'm both new to the world of sailing and to the forum, and so I apologise if this post is stupid, naïve, in the wrong subforum, or some combinaton of the three.
I recently bought a Westerly Centaur in need of a lot of TLC (I know, I know, cheap boats and all that.) and while she was fine to sail when I bought her, during Storm Agnes, the boom dropped into the cockpit. After visiting the boat and poking around I have concluded that the fitting at the top of the mast must have failed, as the topping lift was intact and still attached both at the boom end and the base of the mast where it is tied off, but it was mostly in the water and snarled by the rudder etc. The boom and gooseneck both appear undamaged.

Here's the issue; the boat cannot stay where she is, and I have booked winter storage 12 mostly sheltered miles away from her current mooring, so I need a short-term solution to move her, leading me to ask the following questions:
1. Would it be safe to sail with just the jib, given that the mast isn't currently supporting the weight of the boom?
2. I have heard that it is possible to tie a line from the boom end to the backstay to keep the boom up - the main uses in-mast furling if that changes matters - would this be safe or would it risk overtaxing the standing rigging? Like I say, I'm a total novice.

The engine is underpowered for a boat this size and I'd really rather not motor the entire way if it can be avoided.

Many thanks in advance,
Ed

 

[veshengro]

If you won't be using your Main sail it may be possible to use to use one end of the Main Halyard, the end normally used at the sail head, to support the after end of the boom. You may need to temporarily bend an extra length of suitable line to the Halyard to make it long enough, but it should at least keep the boom end out of the cockpit.
I can't see any reason why you couldn't just use the Jib to sail the boat, provided on wind conditions/ direction etc: but check the condition of the Back Stay first.

You may be lucky and be able to run down wind with the engine ticking over.
Just to repeat. Before you do anything else, just have a look at the Back stay, make sure it's secure, at least at deck level. If fittings aloft are giving way, have a good look at the rest of the rig before you let any mooring ropes go.

 

[roaringgirl]

Do you mean that the line has snapped? If yes, then you need to go up the mast and thread another one down. You won't be able to do this once the boat is hauled out (unless you're planning to lift out the mast). Do you have another couple of halyards rigged that you can use to go aloft?

To answer your original question, you'll be fine just using the jib, unless other halyards start breaking.

 

[Dellquay13]

I know little about in mast furling and their main halyards, but if you can’t repurpose that halyard, and you are intending to motor, do you have a spinnaker halyard that could be used as a makeshift topping lift?
If you are intending to sail, doesn’t the mainsail support the boom when unfurled making the topping lift unnecessary underway? I don’t have any tension on my topping lift when under sail.

 

[DoubleEnder]

I’m guessing that the main halyard is unavailable as it’s attached to the the head of the main, which is furled inside the mast. And you can’t unfurl the main as you need the boom to be at the correct angle to do that.
So you could perhaps rig a line from the backstay to support the boom. Or you could perhaps lash the boom on deck to stop it rolling around. You might perhaps be able to use a spinnaker halyard as a topping lift. But that may be difficult.

You can certainly sail under headsail alone if the breeze is fair. Progress to windward may be unrealistic especially if the sail is not in great shape.
So you’re looking at maybe doing 12 miles under power. How underpowered are you?

I don’t know where you are or what that involves. You say it is mostly sheltered, but tidal streams should be considered. Consider motor sailing, you might get enough help from the headsail to make it quicker and easier.

Is the mast going to be removed while you are in storage? It sounds like this would be a good idea and will allow you to repair the broken fitting and inspect the masthead and other fittings.

If the mast is not going to be removed you are faced with the prospect of going aloft to repair the topping lift fitting. I strongly recommend that you do not do this. One fitting has already given way. Who knows what else may be going on up there. Get the mast out.

Before setting off check you that you can use the anchor, tell someone where you are going, check your communications and consider taking someone with you.

Bon voyage!

 

[Daydream believer]

When I am not on the boat my boom is always hanging on the backstay with a short line & clip, to take the weight off the topping lift. My boom has the weight of the sail & the cover to support as well.
You should be perfectly Ok, if you can do this easily.
Alternatively, just lay the boom to one side. You may have to move it to use the genoa winch, but just swop sides, which should not be a hardship, for such a short trip..

 

[jamie N]

Just out of interest, which engine is it?

 

[Refueler]

Two pieces of wood ... create a X crutch .... lift boom end into the crutch to support ... QED.

Here you see the wood crutch supporting my mast clear of cockpit ... boom is no different really :

If your main was not in mast furling - then topping lift failure might have strained the mainsail .... but as foot was not along boom - you are ok. If you can lift the boom while unfurling the main - then its still a viable sail.
Centaur sails well on Genoa alone ... in fact often the Centaur Genoa will be driving the boat more than the main ...

 

[Daydream believer]

Two pieces of wood ... create a X crutch .... lift boom end into the crutch to support ... QED.

Obvious really

 

[Refueler]

Obvious really

Well no-one else had said it !!

 

[EdgarP]

What a lot of great feedback here, thank you very much, folks.

If you won't be using your Main sail it may be possible to use to use one end of the Main Halyard, the end normally used at the sail head, to support the after end of the boom. You may need to temporarily bend an extra length of suitable line to the Halyard to make it long enough, but it should at least keep the boom end out of the cockpit.
I can't see any reason why you couldn't just use the Jib to sail the boat, provided on wind conditions/ direction etc: but check the condition of the Back Stay first.

You may be lucky and be able to run down wind with the engine ticking over.
Just to repeat. Before you do anything else, just have a look at the Back stay, make sure it's secure, at least at deck level. If fittings aloft are giving way, have a good look at the rest of the rig before you let any mooring ropes go.

Are there any ways I can test the backstay other than yanking it, checking the chain plates etc? Would it make sense to adjust the tension since the boom isn't being held by the mast any more?

Do you mean that the line has snapped? If yes, then you need to go up the mast and thread another one down. You won't be able to do this once the boat is hauled out (unless you're planning to lift out the mast). Do you have another couple of halyards rigged that you can use to go aloft?

To answer your original question, you'll be fine just using the jib, unless other halyards start breaking.

Nah, the line is intact, there are a few protusions and what appears to be a dangling shackle at the masthead, but I couldn't hazard a guess as to how it was originally set up. I had previously noticed that the TL made an appalling thrumming noise when the wind got above a certain speed on the mooring, which is why I was so surprised that it wasn't the line that broke.

I know little about in mast furling and their main halyards, but if you can’t repurpose that halyard, and you are intending to motor, do you have a spinnaker halyard that could be used as a makeshift topping lift?
If you are intending to sail, doesn’t the mainsail support the boom when unfurled making the topping lift unnecessary underway? I don’t have any tension on my topping lift when under sail.

The issue with the first idea is that I don't think I have anywhere to attach it to.
I would imagine that the main would carry the boom when unfurled, although @gdallas suggests that this would require a fairly specific angle to unfurl. but as a newbie I'd be very wary of solely relying on this, as I wouldn't know what warning signs to look out for if the boom was about to drop on my head.

So you could perhaps rig a line from the backstay to support the boom. Or you could perhaps lash the boom on deck to stop it rolling around. You might perhaps be able to use a spinnaker halyard as a topping lift. But that may be difficult.

I tied the boom down and it is pretty firmly wedged so I'm not overly concerned about it rolling around, at least not until we have to adjust the jib...

How underpowered are you?

When my friend and I took her out for a test spin under motor we managed maybe 3 miles in a couple of hours, but that included some faff, as well as a practice run at coming alongside, docking, etc. Wish I could be more precise, but the log is another thing on the list of things to fix!

I don’t know where you are or what that involves. You say it is mostly sheltered, but tidal streams should be considered. Consider motor sailing, you might get enough help from the headsail to make it quicker and easier.

Is the mast going to be removed while you are in storage? It sounds like this would be a good idea and will allow you to repair the broken fitting and inspect the masthead and other fittings.

If the mast is not going to be removed you are faced with the prospect of going aloft to repair the topping lift fitting. I strongly recommend that you do not do this. One fitting has already given way. Who knows what else may be going on up there. Get the mast out.

Before setting off check you that you can use the anchor, tell someone where you are going, check your communications and consider taking someone with you.

The boat is in the Kyles of Bute and I'm overwintering her in Rothesay, so the plan is to time it so that we pass the Burnt Islands as the tide turns and have tidal assistance down the East Kyle at least as far as the entry to Loch Striven.
Unfortunately I've left it too late to have her hauled out, otherwise I would absolutely be having the mast taken down, but the advice about not going aloft is very well received, as is the other safety advice.

Just out of interest, which engine is it?

Pass: a Yanmar GM of some sort, not sure which model. Next time I'm aboard I'll have a look.

Two pieces of wood ... create a X crutch .... lift boom end into the crutch to support ... QED.

I'm going to like it here

 

[EdgarP]

When I am not on the boat my boom is always hanging on the backstay with a short line & clip, to take the weight off the topping lift. My boom has the weight of the sail & the cover to support as well.
You should be perfectly Ok, if you can do this easily.
Alternatively, just lay the boom to one side. You may have to move it to use the genoa winch, but just swop sides, which should not be a hardship, for such a short trip..

I guess the question with regards to the first approach is that, as has been pointed out, some fittings have already failed, so I don't really know if I can rely on the backstay to hold the extra weight.

Thanks!

 

[Refueler]

The topping lift main use - is to support boom when not sailing.

Yes there are other advanced techniques it can be used for ... scandalising main ... adjusting leech roach etc. - but for this thread ... its just a line that holds boom up.

On the matter of top of mast ... many boats such as Centaurs - Colvics etc. used a plain Pad eye or Deck eye ...

with a small flag halyard block attached for line to run through. I suspect that either the block has come unfastened from the eye - or the eye has pulled its screws / rivets from mast. It should be simple fix ....

Some people say not to ascend mast when ashore ... that's silly ... nothing wrong with going up there when boat ashore .. just make sure ropes / gear used is good .....

 

[Refueler]

I guess the question with regards to the first approach is that, as has been pointed out, some fittings have already failed, so I don't really know if I can rely on the backstay to hold the extra weight.

Thanks!

????

Topping lifts on such boats are using fittings that have no connection or bearing on stays ...

Centaurs stays are oversized actually for the size of boat and the chainplates / mast etc are not usually concern on such.

 

[Daydream believer]

Some people say not to ascend mast when ashore ... that's silly ... nothing wrong with going up there when boat ashore .. just make sure ropes / gear used is good .....

It just means that when you fall & bounce off the cabin top you do not bounce into nice soft water, but hard ground. But at least, if the first bounce does not kill you, !!! , then you will not drown.
Plus, the fire brigade can get a ladder up to you, when you get stuck up there, or lose your nerve & start screaming.

I always get reminded of the story (no idea how true) of a couple who had masthead trouble at sea. The husband went up the mast & tied himself to the masthead to stop himself swinging about. He had a heart attack & his wife could not lower him down.
She sailed (Or so the story goes) several hundred miles with a dead hubby up the mast until she got to port.

 

[oldbloke]

I think (I hope), you are worrying too much about the backstay. It is as strong as the rest of the rigging and won't even notice the weight of the boom. Unless...... it is in such a state that if you sneeze it will fall down.
The mechanical propulsion is a worry, a pair of oars should be good for 3 miles in 2 hours. Something is v wrong. Is the boat horribly fouled?.
I sympathise with your situation, it is the end of the season and you have to move her . Do you have a friend with a boat who could accompany you and tow if needed?.

 

[EdgarP]

????

Topping lifts on such boats are using fittings that have no connection or bearing on stays ...

Centaurs stays are oversized actually for the size of boat and the chainplates / mast etc are not usually concern on such.

No, I know that they're unrelated, but the backstay doesn't normally directly hold the weight of the boom, and running a line from the boom end to the backstay would increase the load on the backstay, and as I simply don't know enough about the forces involved, I fully expect to say things that are both stupid and naïve

 

[Dellquay13]

The topping lift main use - is to support boom when not sailing.

Yes there are other advanced techniques it can be used for ... scandalising main ... adjusting leech roach etc. - but for this thread ... its just a line that holds boom up.

Since I never have any tension on my topping lift when general sailing, only using it to support the boom when the sail is packed away, I’d feel perfectly fine sailing without fear of the sail letting the boom fall.

 

[Dellquay13]

No, I know that they're unrelated, but the backstay doesn't normally directly hold the weight of the boom, and running a line from the boom end to the backstay would increase the load on the backstay, and as I simply don't know enough about the forces involved, I fully expect to say things that are both stupid and naïve

The backstay takes a lot more strain from the genny in a decent blow than the weight of the boom could exert. The little bit of strain from the weight of the boom on the backstay would be on the forestay really. Those two stays take the force from the wind heeling the boat, that’s a lot more force than gravity on your boom

 

[EdgarP]

I think (I hope), you are worrying too much about the backstay. It is as strong as the rest of the rigging and won't even notice the weight of the boom. Unless...... it is in such a state that if you sneeze it will fall down.

I think so too. The standing rigging is in good condition from what I could see when I checked her over. Certainly all of the chainplates seem solid, as do the spreaders. And we successfully sailed around a bit when I first viewed her.

The mechanical propulsion is a worry, a pair of oars should be good for 3 miles in 2 hours. Something is v wrong. Is the boat horribly fouled?.
I sympathise with your situation, it is the end of the season and you have to move her . Do you have a friend with a boat who could accompany you and tow if needed?.

Funny you say that about the oars, my friend remarked when I was rowing the tender back to shore that we were going about the same speed.
I wouldn't think it's that badly fouled, the previous owner had her hauled out annually. The engine definitely needs work, as there was intermittent black smoke and sooty gunk coming out of the exhaust when my friend and I did our test pootle, but I understand that these engines, particularly the older ones, tend to run dirty if not used for a while.