EU countries allowing UK citizens to say over 90 days

[Poignard]

Far from it! - I used to work seasons in the French Alps as a qualified Mountain Guide and I am sure the same is still true (or would be if they could) for many young (and not so young) British professionals in many different capacities. The rules will affect them profoundly even to the extent of restricting their ability to earn a livelihood. The situation we have now is a total mess - well and we all know why don't we....

We certainly do.

 

[steve yates]

Not really if you wish to work and the work is available then it's possible to apply for a visa but seasonal work for the very limited few that would like to do it is likely to be limited. It was always quite difficult in any case at least in the area you mention.

Guides are self employed, so its not quite that simple. And there is a vast difference between trying to find a job from home and apply for a work visa to simply turning up, finding a place to doss then going out and getting the first job that takes your fancy, which is what the young and not so young used to do for their winter seasons in the alps, pre brexit.

 

[westernman]

Guides are self employed, so its not quite that simple. And there is a vast difference between trying to find a job from home and apply for a work visa to simply turning up, finding a place to doss then going out and getting the first job that takes your fancy, which is what the young and not so young used to do for their winter seasons in the alps, pre brexit.

Employers have an legal obligation to take EU workers before considering any others.

If we recruit a non EU worker we have to present proof that we could not recruit an EU worker who could do the job. That involves showing we advertised widely in the EU and that we did not get sufficient 'adequate' candiates while offering an 'adequate' wage for the job. 'Adequate' is open to interpretation and stalling by authorities.
Basically it means it will take at least 3 months before you can make an offer, and then several more months to get the proper work permit for your chosen candidate. It is also expensive for the employer requiring a health check (800 euros last time we did this).

I.e. for something seasonal for which there are not special rules in place (such as fruit pickers), you can just forget it.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Guides are self employed, so its not quite that simple. And there is a vast difference between trying to find a job from home and apply for a work visa to simply turning up, finding a place to doss then going out and getting the first job that takes your fancy, which is what the young and not so young used to do for their winter seasons in the alps, pre brexit.

Guides and ski instructors can't simply rock up and expect to find work they need to be accredited and always have been required to be so.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Employers have an legal obligation to take EU workers before considering any others.

If we recruit a non EU worker we have to present proof that we could not recruit an EU worker who could do the job. That involves showing we advertised widely in the EU and that we did not get sufficient 'adequate' candiates while offering an 'adequate' wage for the job. 'Adequate' is open to interpretation and stalling by authorities.
Basically it means it will take at least 3 months before you can make an offer, and then several more months to get the proper work permit for your chosen candidate. It is also expensive for the employer requiring a health check (800 euros last time we did this).

I.e. for something seasonal for which there are not special rules in place (such as fruit pickers), you can just forget it.

Exactly and with a guide or ski instructor / guide which is seasonal and very important to the local employment market it should be.

 

[steve yates]

Yes I know, I used to live in the alps climbing and skiing, many of my friends were qualified guides. It takes a long time and is not easy, and they are few and far between compared to the winter population. Thats got nowt to do with the point tho, as the vast majorityof folk working a winter season in the alps are simply working in shops, hotels, chalets etc so they can ski and climb in their own time.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Yes I know, I used to live in the alps climbing and skiing, many of my friends were qualified guides. It takes a long time and is not easy, and they are few and far between compared to the winter population. Thats got nowt to do with the point tho, as the vast majorityof folk working a winter season in the alps are simply working in shops, hotels, chalets etc so they can ski and climb in their own time.

Again all important to the local economy and employment market.

 

[steve yates]

Exactly and with a guide or ski instructor / guide which is seasonal and very important to the local employment market it should be.

Almost all international qualified mountain guides are employed by no one, they are almost universally self employed. Ski schools will hire qualified instructors, and this is the point. When we were in the EU they hired uk instructors, now they cannot, so a uk ski instructor will not get a work visa.

 

[westernman]

Yes I know, I used to live in the alps climbing and skiing, many of my friends were qualified guides. It takes a long time and is not easy, and they are few and far between compared to the winter population. Thats got nowt to do with the point tho, as the vast majorityof folk working a winter season in the alps are simply working in shops, hotels, chalets etc so they can ski and climb in their own time.

If that is unskilled work, you can't recruit some one from outside the EU.
Those jobs are not on the special dispensation list (i.e. agricultural workers).

 

[steve yates]

Again all important to the local economy and employment market.

Im confused, so are you for or against the EU idea of free movement of labour?

 

[steve yates]

If that is unskilled work, you can't recruit some one from outside the EU.
Those jobs are not on the special dispensation list (i.e. agricultural workers).

Of course they cant, thats what danaskip was saying, and thats the problem.
He was illustrating that the 90/180 day rule does not only impact a small,minority of middle class retired tourists!

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Im confused, so are you for or against the EU idea of free movement of labour?

All for it and the regulations that countries can use to ensure their own labour market gets first dibs.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Of course they cant, thats what danaskip was saying, and thats the problem.
He was illustrating that the 90/180 day rule does not only impact a small,minority of middle class retired tourists!

The reason those jobs are not on the special dispensation list is exactly for the reasons I have given they are important to local and seasonal economies and employment always have been.

 

[dgadee]

The reason those jobs are not on the special dispensation list is exactly for the reasons I have given they are important to local and seasonal economies and employment always have been.

But they can come from anywhere in the EU, not just the locality. That undermines the argument that it is for local economic support.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

But they can come from anywhere in the EU, not just the locality. That undermines the argument that it is for local economic support.

There is the ability within the EU and always has been to be selective about employment, if it knocks the bottom out of some old arguments then I am sorry but it's true and always has been.

 

[dgadee]

There is the ability within the EU and always has been to be selective about employment, if it knocks the bottom out of some old arguments then I am sorry but it's true and always has been.

Yes, but it's better to be accurate than not. The population of the EU is currently nearly 450 million. I would imagine there are a few qualified ski people amongst that lot. So the regulation is not for local support (which I would think would be good) but for free movement which is not always so good (particularly when large numbers of young people desert a country) - "Freedom of movement and residence for persons in the European Union is the cornerstone of EU citizenship".

My younger brother left for the Netherlands in 1978 and never came back, so there has always been a goodly bit of movement between European countries before the formal set up of free movement of workers (1985, I think?)

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Yes, but it's better to be accurate than not. The population of the EU is currently nearly 450 million. I would imagine there are a few qualified ski people amongst that lot. So the regulation is not for local support (which I would think would be good) but for free movement which is not always so good (particularly when large numbers of young people desert a country) - "Freedom of movement and residence for persons in the European Union is the cornerstone of EU citizenship".

My younger brother left for the Netherlands in 1978 and never came back, so there has always been a goodly bit of movement between European countries before the formal set up of free movement of workers (1985, I think?)

Indeed there has and I worked in France before the EU and people from within the EU can move about but if they can't show that they are self sufficient within 6 months ( I think that is correct) they can be removed. Now let's use the ski guide and teacher as an example, An Austrian chap proficient skier comes to France and tries to get a job or set up as a ski guide you can bet your bottom dollar that the local council will insist that he takes the examination to become a member of the French Federation and that he is proficient in French and if that isn't enough they will find equally plausible and legal obstacles to put in his path plus I would very much doubt that any local association or company would employ him over a local Frenchman. Certainly there used to be English ski instructors but they had to jump through those same hoops and the majority of them worked for UK firms specialising in teaching Brits a valid reason.

 

[Poignard]

There is the ability within the EU and always has been to be selective about employment, if it knocks the bottom out of some old arguments then I am sorry but it's true and always has been.

Tut, tut Father! You should know better than to come here, of all places, making heretical claims like that.

It's common knowledge (although I confess, I didn't know it) that EU membership entails Member States giving up all freedom of action and gettting nothing in return.

That's why they are all deperately scrambling to get out of it as soon as they can.

Away you go now and recite a few Hail Marys and flagellate yourself for having such wicked thoughts.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Tut, tut Father! You should know better than to come here, of all places, making heretical claims like that.

It's common knowledge (although I confess, I didn't know it) that EU membership entails Member States giving up all freedom of action and gettting nothing in return.

That's why they are all deperately scrambling to get out of it as soon as they can.

Away you go now and recite a few Hail Marys and flagellate yourself for having such wicked thoughts.

Should I use a tawse, or Birch twigs or do you have other suggestions.

 

[Poignard]

Should I use a tawse, or Birch twigs or do you have other suggestions.

Whatever turns you on ...