Ensign?

[oldmanofthehills]

Just point out which bit is inaccurate…

Ok not bollocks but irrelevant, and I apologise if I was rude.You can fly what flags you like.

But after about 100k years of homo sapiens going boating someone about 200 years ago started to define flags for UK naval vessels - though it was regularly ignored - the merchant shipping regulations of the UK later codified it a bit though UK flags were and are bizzare by any other nations design thoughts.

But you and I are do not have registered merchant navy vessels or warships or naval auxiliaries

Furthermore there are 4 or 5 primary nations within the UK, each with their own clear identity and a flag. Why the welsh have tolerated the insult of their complete exclusion from the combined flag for years is unclear to any outside observer. Are the Welsh so humble that they are ashamed of being Welsh or are they angered at being part of the UK so say F U?

So some of us faced with mindless and rather oppressive homogenous of identity go back a bit - perhaps 1000 years - and try and be more specific. You or your boat are from Wales, my boat and my YC are Cornish, he is Scottish.

So some of us adjust our flags. As an englishman in Cornish waters I declare my affiliation or alliance by flying a cornish ensign. (And cornwall regards itself as no more england than does wales)

Perhaps when I sail to Roscoff in 2 week I will fly the standard red ensign to avoid explanation, but heading down brittany I will fly the cornish ensign - which as I mentioned before has provenance. I will also fly the breton flag as courtesy. It goes down well with the natives of that region.

As I say you can fly what flag you like - but so can I

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Every part of the British Isles can lay claim to it’s own flag. It’s the road to chaos to just make up your own ensign. Legal or not, at least we’d all recognise a Scottish one. Would you Scots recognise an Isle of Wight flag? I tend to think Mr Morris is right. You might like the idea of flying your regional ensign, but it’s unwise in the areas where an ensign is a legal requirement. Fly your national/regional flag at the crosstrees, avoid difficult questions from hung over douanes.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Ok not bollocks but irrelevant, and I apologise if I was rude.You can fly what flags you like.

But after about 100k years of homo sapiens going boating someone about 200 years ago started to define flags for UK naval vessels - though it was regularly ignored - the merchant shipping regulations of the UK later codified it a bit though UK flags were and are bizzare by any other nations design thoughts.

But you and I are do not have registered merchant navy vessels or warships or naval auxiliaries

Furthermore there are 4 or 5 primary nations within the UK, each with their own clear identity and a flag. Why the welsh have tolerated the insult of their complete exclusion from the combined flag for years is unclear to any outside observer. Are the Welsh so humble that they are ashamed of being Welsh or are they angered at being part of the UK so say F U?

So some of us faced with mindless and rather oppressive homogenous of identity go back a bit - perhaps 1000 years - and try and be more specific. You or your boat are from Wales, my boat and my YC are Cornish, he is Scottish.

So some of us adjust our flags. As an englishman in Cornish waters I declare my affiliation or alliance by flying a cornish ensign. (And cornwall regards itself as no more england than does wales)

Perhaps when I sail to Roscoff in 2 week I will fly the standard red ensign to avoid explanation, but heading down brittany I will fly the cornish ensign - which as I mentioned before has provenance. I will also fly the breton flag as courtesy. It goes down well with the natives of that region.

As I say you can fly what flag you like - but so can I

What you imagine is utter twaddle. There is one defined ensign for vessels that are registered as British, there are some notable exceptions such as the blue ensign defaced or not but it will still carry the union emblem as part of its design to comply with the requirement to identify the nation of registration. There is only one internationally recognised nation to which the countries and principalities that comprise the United Kingdom and British Isles and that is the United Kingdom not 4 nations .
There is no compulsion to wear any ensign nor is there a bar on wearing teacloths rags or any other symbol as long as the boat resides in British waters. There is however a requirement to display the accepted ensign of the boats registration on entering and leaving a foreign port.
There is a lot of pointless garbage in your post relating to imaginary scenarios of the past either an attempt at deflection,justification or simple ignorance. The law is international and relates to now.There is no precedence or derogation for any other identifier.
As for your intentions or practices for displaying the country of registration of your vessel when entering a foreign port, that is entirely your prerogative and you may or may not be challenged over it but ask yourself this, "Do you feel lucky punk"

 

[Graham376]

There is no compulsion to wear any ensign nor is there a bar on wearing teacloths rags or any other symbol as long as the boat resides in British waters. There is however a requirement to display the accepted ensign of the boats registration on entering and leaving a foreign port.

It goes a bit further in some countries. A friend we were sailing in company with was bollocked by French police for not flying his ensign when coastal sailing and here in Portugal, I was warned for not displaying ensign and courtesy flag 24/7, even when moored. Evidently that applies to all foreign visiting boats but not generally enforced.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

It goes a bit further in some countries. A friend we were sailing in company with was bollocked by French police for not flying his ensign when coastal sailing and here in Portugal, I was warned for not displaying ensign and courtesy flag 24/7, even when moored. Evidently that applies to all foreign visiting boats but not generally enforced.

Yes although the requirement or compliance is fundamentally an international one individual countries can and do often try to impose their own requirements or interpretations on visiting yachts. Those bloody minded enough could seek to challenge and in the long run would probably be successful but it would cost them in the short term and inevitably be a lengthy process and one that is best avoided.

 

[ylop]

Ok not bollocks but irrelevant, and I apologise if I was rude.You can fly what flags you like.

Oh, at least part of it was bollocks. Your national identity is your own personal thing and not something which can be imposed upon you. People attempting to impose such an identity are almost always part of the problem rather than the unifiers they think they are.

However, the national identity of the vessel may be different from those on board (I chartered a German flagged vessel in the Netherlands and had a lot of people try to talk German to me).

I fly a standard red ensign even when just in U.K. waters because the vessel is British registered, and it seems to be the normal thing. Do people assume that by doing so I am proudly British?

 

[Graham376]

Oh, at least part of it was bollocks. Your national identity is your own personal thing and not something which can be imposed upon you. People attempting to impose such an identity are almost always part of the problem rather than the unifiers they think they are.

However, the national identity of the vessel may be different from those on board (I chartered a German flagged vessel in the Netherlands and had a lot of people try to talk German to me).

I fly a standard red ensign even when just in U.K. waters because the vessel is British registered, and it seems to be the normal thing. Do people assume that by doing so I am proudly British?

In that situation, many fly their national flag or ensign below the port spreader, to indicate nationality of crew.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Oh, at least part of it was bollocks. Your national identity is your own personal thing and not something which can be imposed upon you. People attempting to impose such an identity are almost always part of the problem rather than the unifiers they think they are.

However, the national identity of the vessel may be different from those on board (I chartered a German flagged vessel in the Netherlands and had a lot of people try to talk German to me).

I fly a standard red ensign even when just in U.K. waters because the vessel is British registered, and it seems to be the normal thing. Do people assume that by doing so I am proudly British?

Good lord! for those that are hard of thinking and understanding it is not the person it is the vessel that requires its national registration to be identified by the wearing of the appropriate ensign as defined by international law. It will tend to make people think that the owner or skipper is of the same nationality a quite reasonable assumption in most cases, moist of Europe rightly or wrongly will initially associate the yacht and its occupants as being English again a natural assumption since there are 55 million of them as opposed to the handful of others. When this is the case and the occupants find it distasteful it gives them the perfect opportunity to disparage the English and vent their spleen to the unassuming Jonny Foreigner and put him right. This is where the option of displaying a curtesy ensign from the port flag hoist will allow those on board to declare their particular affiliation if they so desire and in doing so may at least save Jonny Foreigner the embarrassment of assuming the occupants to be either English or proud Britons or simply ignorant of flags etiquette and requirements. .

 

[capnsensible]

Oh, at least part of it was bollocks. Your national identity is your own personal thing and not something which can be imposed upon you. People attempting to impose such an identity are almost always part of the problem rather than the unifiers they think they are.

However, the national identity of the vessel may be different from those on board (I chartered a German flagged vessel in the Netherlands and had a lot of people try to talk German to me).

I fly a standard red ensign even when just in U.K. waters because the vessel is British registered, and it seems to be the normal thing. Do people assume that by doing so I am proudly British?

Check the front of your passport if you are not sure about your nationality.

I've delivered boats under other flags but I still flew the ensign of the registered country. It really isn't difficult.

You can, if you wish, fly a courtesy flag of different nationalities on you port spreader. Rarely done, but simply that. A courtesy. Something missing on this thread, I think....

 

[KevinV]

..as opposed to the handful of others..

Although I entirely agree that an ensign is simply a statement of the vessels state of registration, and nothing to do with the nationality or regional identity of the owner/ skipper/ crew, it's exactly the above attitude that makes the "handful of others" rebellious and not want to fly the correct ensign.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Although I entirely agree that an ensign is simply a statement of the vessels state of registration, and nothing to do with the nationality or regional identity of the owner/ skipper/ crew, it's exactly the above attitude that makes the "handful of others" rebellious and not want to fly the correct ensign.

I could have used an internet search engine to provide exact figures but I didn't I used a very approximate number which might offend some English Jonnys however the expression handful is adequate to describe the large difference between say the 55,977,178 some of whom won't actually be English and the 5,520,000 of Scotland some of course who won't actually be Scottish, leaving aside the question as to how such a label could be ascribed.
It's also the the attitude amongst some disaffected, they would say disenfranchised of Scotland and Wales that makes a lot of English tax payers wish that they could get their wish and bugger off to the promised land of milk and honey.

 

[ylop]

Check the front of your passport if you are not sure about your nationality.

Your national identity and nationality are not necessarily the same thing! Perhaps you didn’t understand the question when you competed the census. Although case law recognises that in terms of the Equality Act at least Scottish, English, Welsh etc are nationalities, and protected characteristics!

in my experience the only people who actually care about flag etiquette are people on internet forums and who write to magazines complaining about a lack of courtesy! How you could possibly be offended as a casual sailor by someone who does or does not put a patterned piece of cloth in the right place is fascinating.

 

[dgadee]

in my experience the only people who actually care about flag etiquette are people on internet forums and who write to magazines complaining about a lack of courtesy! How you could possibly be offended as a casual sailor by someone who does or does not put a patterned piece of cloth in the right place is fascinating.

So true. It is like the flag Taliban. Let my poor crew alone! She has done you no harm.

 

[capnsensible]

Your national identity and nationality are not necessarily the same thing! Perhaps you didn’t understand the question when you competed the census. Although case law recognises that in terms of the Equality Act at least Scottish, English, Welsh etc are nationalities, and protected characteristics!

in my experience the only people who actually care about flag etiquette are people on internet forums and who write to magazines complaining about a lack of courtesy! How you could possibly be offended as a casual sailor by someone who does or does not put a patterned piece of cloth in the right place is fascinating.

I've said a few times I don't care what you do. However having spent decades travelling, mostly under sail, to scores of different countries and also having been a professional sailor, I'm well aware of the need to conform to international requirements. So if you actually went somewhere rather than looking at forums, you would see how seriously other nations take flag procedure. I have.

My passport clearly says I'm a British Citizen. With the added fun bit saying Gibraltar as that's where I was living when it was issued. You will be very entertaining when clearing in at various places that don't speak English claiming you are something other than British. They don't care either. It is exactly what it says on your passport. Nothing more, nothing less. Good luck.

Not being asked to complete a census, I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[capnsensible]

So true. It is like the flag Taliban. Let my poor crew alone! She has done you no harm.

Yet here you are on an Internet forum whining about flags! You couldn't make it up.

 

[Capt Popeye]

But didn't the Spice Girls get away with it?

Well did not the Spice Girls wear it on their Transom ?

A most suitable place to show it off

 

[Chiara’s slave]

The issue is the hundreds of years of tradition of flag etiquette. Admittedly those ways have changed over the years, but not much. We’d be looked at strangely by other club members if we didn't do it right. However, it’s possible to be too dogmatic when in home waters. As for the spice girls, Mrs Horner wore it all over. So wrong it was right again. Of course when I say all over, now I think about it, it was barely there at all.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

There really are some hard of thinking and understanding people on here that despite having had it pointed out on numerous occasions by numerous people, the British ensign is nothing whatsoever to do with the nationality of the skipper or crew of a vessel ( yacht). It purely denotes the country of registration of said vessel and is required by International maritime law to be displayed on entering and leaving a foreign port. Some countries extend this requirement to be displayed at all times whilst in their waters.

 

[dunedin]

So true. It is like the flag Taliban. Let my poor crew alone! She has done you no harm.

To be fair the OP raised a question about flying flags in UK waters, where ensigns not a requirement for UK boats.

You chose to raise the fact that you have chosen to let your crew show an unofficial flag when in overseas waters, when (unlike the OP) there is in fact a perfectly reasonable international legal requirement to fly the ensign matching the ship registration.
‘Twas your call to highlight your crew’s refusal to adhere to a legal requirement that 99.9% of Scots (and others) don’t choose to get uppity over. A courtesy flag on the starboard side and a Saltire on the port spreader suits us, then chill and enjoy the location.
You could have chosen to keep schtum but chose not to

 

[dgadee]

To be fair the OP raised a question about flying flags in UK waters, where ensigns not a requirement for UK boats.

You chose to raise the fact that you have chosen to let your crew show an unofficial flag when in overseas waters, when (unlike the OP) there is in fact a perfectly reasonable international legal requirement to fly the ensign matching the ship registration.
‘Twas your call to highlight your crew’s refusal to adhere to a legal requirement that 99.9% of Scots (and others) don’t choose to get uppity over. A courtesy flag on the starboard side and a Saltire on the port spreader suits us, then chill and enjoy the location.
You could have chosen to keep schtum but chose not to

It does match the ship registration. Port of Leith.

Why would I keep schtum? You are the Taliban!