Ensign?

[capnsensible]

But most of the legal requirements stated here have not been well understood. Talk of enforcement of UK law abroad, international law, seizure of ship, hiding nationality etc. I have pointed out these legal errors but the majority of those posting continue to make them.

I do try, but you lot will have to up your legal game.

Easy peasy my old fraudulent flagger. Two minutes with Google rips your nonsense apart. Sorry, to pull the rug. A typical example:

The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) specifies that all ships “have the nationality of the State whose flag they are entitled to fly.” Consequently, flag states exercise jurisdiction over their flagged vessels. A recent and quickly growing phenomenon, however, has put this basic tenet of the law of the sea in question: unauthorized flag use.

Unauthorized flag use is a practice whereby a vessel uses a state’s flag without its consent and, oftentimes, without its knowledge. Although this can take many forms, often overlapping, it may be helpful to think of this issue in two broad categories: fraudulent flagging and false flagging. Fraudulent flagging generally entails an official recognition of fraudulent registration, e.g. fraudulently issued registration documents resulting in formal recognition by the International Maritime Organization (IMO). False flagging, on the other hand, describes a situation where a vessel falsely claims registration different than the flag it is actually authorized to fly as a matter of expediency. Both create a gap wherein there is no effective oversight of the vessel’s activities, which can be exploited to facilitate a range of illicit activities.

 

[capnsensible]

what law tells vessels to:fly national ensigns - Google Suche

 

[capnsensible]

There is just soooo much out there to trip the amateur guessed. Help yourself.

 

[john_morris_uk]

But most of the legal requirements stated here have not been well understood. Talk of enforcement of UK law abroad, international law, seizure of ship, hiding nationality etc. I have pointed out these legal errors but the majority of those posting continue to make them.

I do try, but you lot will have to up your legal game.

You can make up your own rules but here’s the official ones by the UK Gov.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/21/body/data.xht?view=snippet&wrap=true

And whilst I’ve every sympathy with your Scots independence brief (without agreeing with it one iota) until the situation changes, Scotland is still a part of the United Kingdom and the correct ensign is the red duster.

The fact that you’ve not been challenged by some officious douane or other authority is just lucky and doesn’t prove you’re right.

Wear what you want but don’t come bleating when you’re challenged and don’t keep trying to argue that the rules and conventions don’t apply to you.

I note that most seafarers are very mindful of keeping conventions.

 

[Supine Being]

Not xenophobic at all. Just has noted the positives of not being English when dealing with foreign officials. Don't shoot the messenger!

You know what foreign officials like even more than (as far as they are concerned) a slightly different sub-species of Englishman? An Englishman, of whatever stripe, that has their paperwork and ensign in order allowing them to get on with their day and/or one that seems to be wasting their time with meaningless non-compliance thereby allowing them to liven up an otherwise dull day by affording them every opportunity to haul them over the coals. Immigration officials: a great bunch of lads!

(For the literalists out there, no, of course I don't think that citizens of other kingdoms in the UK are English - just don't expect people elsewhere to care either way).

So, UK boat in UK waters? Fly your granny's frillies for all anyone cares. UK boat elsewhere? Then fly an officially recognised ensign or roll the dice on consequences. Your notions of nationhood count for nothing.

 

[steve yates]

As someone that lives in Europe has friends from different parts of Europe I can assure you that there is a general assumption that all British are English and the difference between Welsh Scots and English is a matter of no importance, further more there is no particular dislike of the English of favouring of Scots over them, we are all classed as the same.

You may live there but that really is wishful thinking. Or perhaps you just dont see it because you are english thus never see had the opportunity. I also lived in france, and worked for a french company for 5 years with a french crew of around 200. A large enough proportion of them had a significantly better opinion of scots and Irish than they did of english folk. Large enough to be noticeable.
Whether that applies to offialdom I don’t know, but they are still just a cross section of people, so I would expect so.

 

[steve yates]

Back on the topic, I actually have the little pretend scottish ensign shown earlier on my wee boat, purely to wind up flagshaggers I am under no illusions that the only legal ensign I should fly in foreign ports and waters is the UK red ensign, and I have one in the locker. I also understand completely that the ensign refers to the boat, and my own nationality, country of residence or citizenship is irrelevant in that respect.

 

[Poignard]

Why not do away with this ancient flummery and simply have a registration code painted on the hull, as aircraft have on their fuselage?

Those who like ancient flummery should, of course, be free to adorn their vessels with pieces of coloured cloth should they so wish.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Why not do away with this ancient flummery and simply have a registration code painted on the hull, as aircraft have on their fuselage?

Those who like ancient flummery should, of course, be free to adorn their vessels with pieces of coloured cloth should they so wish.

Does hour boat not have a registration number painted (or vinylled) on the hull? You need that as well as the coloured cloth, last time I checked. Les Douanes get very, very uppity without that, and it’s accompanying bit of paper.

 

[RobbieW]

Does hour boat not have a registration number painted (or vinylled) on the hull? You need that as well as the coloured cloth, last time I checked. Les Douanes get very, very uppity without that, and it’s accompanying bit of paper.

Not true of Part 1 registered vessels. Only the name and port of registry required on the stern

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Not true of Part 1 registered vessels. Only the name and port of registry required on the stern

Ok. Not having ever owned a part 1 registered boat, I didn't know that.

 

[Poignard]

Does hour boat not have a registration number painted (or vinylled) on the hull? You need that as well as the coloured cloth, last time I checked. Les Douanes get very, very uppity without that, and it’s accompanying bit of paper.

No. But she does have her name and port of registry painted on the transom. Her Official Number is engraved on a coachroof beam.

During the 9 years she has been based in France we have only had one visitation by officials and they seemed happy with what they found.

Looking round the marinas here, it seems to be the case that only SSR numbers are displayed on British yachts, not Official Numbers.

I must confess to not being very knowledgeable on these things but might it be the case that a vessel on Part 1 of the Register only need show her port of registry?

I have never seen a merchant ship displaying her ON.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I was thinking most of us are SSR. I only know one person with a part 1 registered boat, in person. And that’s because he’s a yachtmaster examiner. And now he’s sold her, thinking about it.

Obviously we are SSR.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

You may live there but that really is wishful thinking. Or perhaps you just dont see it because you are english thus never see had the opportunity. I also lived in france, and worked for a french company for 5 years with a french crew of around 200. A large enough proportion of them had a significantly better opinion of scots and Irish than they did of english folk. Large enough to be noticeable.
Whether that applies to offialdom I don’t know, but they are still just a cross section of people, so I would expect so.

Well I am French dual national actually but consider myself French and when asked I say French then the conversation goes to what my original nationality was and the answer is British and there the question stops.
I worked for a French company a long time ago and worked in France for several years since then I have worked as a project manager and commissioning manager with French and German companies building several factories and the question of differentiating or acknowledging the separate parts of the UK have never arisen. I suspect that it only does out of politeness when a Scot insists on displaying his nationality, as has been mentioned I suspect that a Frenchman or German would consider Scotland and Wales in much the same way as he would consider say Brittany or perhaps a French overseas territory which whilst claiming unique identity and proudly doing so are considered French first and foremost by all except a handful determined to thrust their unique identity on everyone else.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Compared to, say, Germany or Italy, Scotland is pretty long standing as part of UK. Current realities means it’s polite for us English to acknowledge Scotland’s right to it’s own identity, leaving aside other unmentionable topics.

 

[capnsensible]

Why not do away with this ancient flummery and simply have a registration code painted on the hull, as aircraft have on their fuselage?

Those who like ancient flummery should, of course, be free to adorn their vessels with pieces of coloured cloth should they so wish.

Lots of countries do.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I was thinking most of us are SSR. I only know one person with a part 1 registered boat, in person. And that’s because he’s a yachtmaster examiner. And now he’s sold her, thinking about it.

Obviously we are SSR.

There may be some confusion here in that the French for example mandate that the registration number of a French vessel is displayed and specify according to boat length where and how large the lettering is displayed. They also insist on the national flag and it's usually worn, tattered and as small as possible as a reaction against such enforcement on many boats. They tend to accept the registration documents of other countries as the identifiers but what attracts their attention is the ensign or lack of it on a vessel, what then follows is the usual inspection of documents.

 

[laika]

I must confess to not being very knowledgeable on these things but might it be the case that a vessel on Part 1 of the Register only need show her port of registry?

I have never seen a merchant ship displaying her ON.

Merchant Shipping regulations 1993 schedule 3. Pleasure vessels <24m, ON is to be carved into the main beam, or a plate, essentially inside. Name and port of registry must be displayed on the stern (ie you're right. My boat is on the part 1)

 

[Chiara’s slave]

There may be some confusion here in that the French for example mandate that the registration number of a French vessel is displayed and specify according to boat length where and how large the lettering is displayed. They also insist on the national flag and it's usually worn, tattered and as small as possible as a reaction against such enforcement on many boats. They tend to accept the registration documents of other countries as the identifiers but what attracts their attention is the ensign or lack of it on a vessel, what then follows is the usual inspection of documents.

Given the number of ne’er do wells who use the water to ply their undesirable trades, understandable. And the French do love their rules, regs and paperwork. Well, not the people obviously. Officials of any kind though, the lower down the pecking order the more they love it.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Given the number of ne’er do wells who use the water to ply their undesirable trades, understandable. And the French do love their rules, regs and paperwork. Well, not the people obviously. Officials of any kind though, the lower down the pecking order the more they love it.

And that is the point I and others have repeatedly made, it only takes a visit from one arsey official who is having a bad day for any number of reasons to give the Saltire flying miscreant a worse day.