Ensign?

[ash2020]

I don't want to stir up a hornets' nest here but I'm an anti royalist. Please convince me why I need to fly a red ensign. Tradition isn't a good enough answer. When I was in Scotland I was happy to fly a Saltire Ensign but now I'm sailing back in British (English) waters.

 

[dunedin]

Generally no requirement for a UK boat to wear an ensign in home waters. Only if go overseas.

For example racing fleets don’t wear an ensign

 

[KeithMD]

Do you mean this Red Ensign?



Actually, it's a civil ensign, nothing to do with the Royal Family.

For them, you might want the Royal Yacht Squadron's ensign

 

[ash2020]

Evidently "The red duster at the fly side is symbolic of courage and valour, while the Union Jack in the top left corner represents England, Scotland and Wales, and the white stripe at the hoist side represents purity and peace."

 

[ash2020]

Do you mean this Red Ensign?

View attachment 154541

Actually, it's a civil ensign, nothing to do with the Royal Family.

For them, you might want the Royal Yacht Squadron's ensign

View attachment 154542

Wearing that would definitely be illegal.

 

[LittleSister]

I don't want to stir up a hornets' nest here but I'm an anti royalist. Please convince me why I need to fly a red ensign. Tradition isn't a good enough answer. When I was in Scotland I was happy to fly a Saltire Ensign but now I'm sailing back in British (English) waters.

Every national ensign (most are the same as the national flag - the UK is unusual in that respect) is the result of the power structures in place at some point in times past, typically around the emergence of the modern nation state (though often 'borrowing' from previous states).

As monarchies were common until relatively recently, many will have some monarchical influence. I doubt that even if the UK were to become a republic (the merits and demerits of which would not be a suitable topic for discussion on this forum!) the national flag and ensign would change. (It might well if the UK broke up.)

Look at it the other way round. If you were a monarchist but lived in a republic, would you have a problem flying the national flag? Does it really imply any acceptance of the system of government in place when the flag/ensign was settled upon? (Most remain what they are because it's too tedious and problematic to change.)

I think the best reason to change the UK national ensign is that it's neither particularly attractive nor a satisfying piece of design, in my view. (And its complexity is a deterrent to having sewn ensigns.) The UK ensigns do at least have the advantage that, unlike the UK national flag, they're not easy to get upside down!

A couple of fred drifting thoughts -
1) The practice of ships showing the national flag or ensigns is surprisingly recent, I discovered not long ago. (But long enough ago I can't actually remember when it became common practice - 16th or 17th Century perhaps? Prior to this, I read, it was not unusual for warships to fire on their own compatriots or allies, as there was no very clear way knowing which ships belonged to which side. (Though probably not unrelated to the historical shift of government from that of a generalised 'people(s)' to a specific territory, which in turn is both the product of, and huge influence on, the development of cartography.)
2) As others have pointed out, there is no legal obligation on a British vessel to show the UK ensign when in home waters, but I wonder whether it is illegal for a British ship in home waters to incorrectly show another state's flag or ensign.

 

[LittleSister]

Wearing that would definitely be illegal.

But didn't the Spice Girls get away with it?

 

[KeithMD]

1) The practice of ships showing the national flag or ensigns is surprisingly recent, I discovered not long ago. (But long enough ago I can't actually remember when it became common practice - 16th or 17th Century perhaps? Prior to this, I read, it was not unusual for warships to fire on their own compatriots or allies, as there was no very clear way knowing which ships belonged to which side.

I concur. It reminds me of Lord Cochrane's biography, in which he happily reports how he flew all sorts of ensigns, to confuse his opponents.

 

[LittleSister]

I concur. It reminds me of Lord Cochrane's biography, in which he happily reports how he flew all sorts of ensigns, to confuse his opponents.

That's rather unsporting, don't you think?

 

[Tranona]

As said no compulsion to fly any flag, nor in reality any restriction on what you fly when within UK territorial waters. the ensign is required outside UK territorial waters to comply with international maritime law that requires you to identify the flag state of your vessel.

Nothing to do with the royal family - and all flag states identifiers are either the national flag or derived from it, likes the uk and Spain for example.

 

[KeithMD]

That's rather unsporting, don't you think?

Completely true. It certainly baffled the opponents of HMS Campbeltown in 1942, which flew the Kriegsmarine ensign until within a few hundred yards of its target.

 

[LittleSister]

I don't want to stir up a hornets' nest here but I'm an anti royalist. Please convince me why I need to fly a red ensign. Tradition isn't a good enough answer. When I was in Scotland I was happy to fly a Saltire Ensign but now I'm sailing back in British (English) waters.

I hate to break it to you, but the origins of the Scottish Saltire appear to be monarchical!

 

[john_morris_uk]

I hate to break it to you, but the origins of the Scottish Saltire appear to be monarchical!

Very much so. It’s only in recent years that it’s become much more synonymous or associated with Scottish independence but that's not a topic for here.

The recently developed practice of yachts wearing any old bit of rag is looked on with much bemusement by other nationalities. Even the most fervent Breton whose boat wears a Breton black and white striped etc flag, will invariably fly it inferior to a tricoleur.

Wear the red with pride. A lot of people died for it and under it.

 

[LittleSister]

Wear the red with pride. A lot of people died for it and under it.

I have absolutely no wish to denigrate the ensign or those that that died or suffered (including those from my own family) 'for or under it', nor you for saying that.

That said, there can be very few national flags/ensigns that not a lot of people have died for and under. So that in itself gives me no cause to be 'proud' of it.

I'm reminded of David Sedaris saying (of US nationalism) “Every day we're told that we live in the greatest country on earth...it's startling to realize that other countries have nationalistic slogans of their own, none of which are 'WE’RE NUMBER TWO’!”

I feel neither pride nor shame to wear the red. (Though have no objection to others feeling either of those things.) It seems to me it just 'is'. By the accident of my birth and the convoluted history of these isles that is the one to use.

I do feel lucky, one could perhaps say unfairly advantaged, to have been born in a country that is at this particular time (as opposed to others times in history) one of the wealthiest, most peaceful and socially liberal in the world (though also unlucky to not get a better share of that wealth, and the charm and good looks with which my compatriots are generally blessed!).

I am well aware of the monarchical, Christian, etc., roots of our country and its flags, but despite subscribing to neither don't feel any particular alienation from our ensign, nor any need to avoid using it.

I do have quite a selection, ranging from a tiny one a few inches long and (illegally?) cut off obliquely on the hoist side to better hang from the topping lift of the little centre-boarder I used to own, to one too big for any boat I'll ever own, a few of which are shown here flown non-traditionally!

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Evidently "The red duster at the fly side is symbolic of courage and valour, while the Union Jack in the top left corner represents England, Scotland and Wales, and the white stripe at the hoist side represents purity and peace."

The above statement refers to the Union between 1707 and 1801, when it comprised of those three nations, but between 1801 and 1922 said Union consisted of Great Britain ( the three nations aforesaid) and Ireland. (Between 1922 and the present time, of course, only the six northeastern counties of Ireland have been part of the UK.)
While England, Scotland and (Northern) Ireland are represented on the Union Flag, through the Cross of St., George, the Cross of St., Andrew and the Cross of St., Patrick, and hence on the various ensigns, Wales is not, its Principality having been joined to the Kingdom of England prior to the emergence of the notion of national flags. It is however represented on the Royal Standard, which the OP may object to, by a red dragon

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Beware of hornets, but the ensign to avoid is the blue ensign. Assuming he’s not going to be elected to the Squadron. The blue is worn, by warrant, by members of Royal yacht clubs. I can understand an anti monarchist having no truck with that.

 

[Tranona]

Beware of hornets, but the ensign to avoid is the blue ensign. Assuming he’s not going to be elected to the Squadron. The blue is worn, by warrant, by members of Royal yacht clubs. I can understand an anti monarchist having no truck with that.

Wrong. A defaced blue is not restricted to "Royal" named clubs. Most clubs with permission to use blue are "normal" - in fact the constitution of my club says specifically for "the working men of Poole and Bournemouth" to differentiate from another local club which was indeed "Royal".

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Wrong. A defaced blue is not restricted to "Royal" named clubs. Most clubs with permission to use blue are "normal" - in fact the constitution of my club says specifically for "the working men of Poole and Bournemouth" to differentiate from another local club which was indeed "Royal".

And blues are not always defaced. Mine is not. They are always flown with a warrant, I’d dispute the ‘most’ bit too, or maybe that’s a Solent thing. Every Royal club wears them here, none of the others, that's by coincidence and geography then?

 

[johnalison]

It always mystifies me why people should be embarrassed by wearing an ensign. It is not as if wearing were not pretty well universal. Is it self-loathing, or being ashamed of their country? If the latter, then why not emigrate? I find it heartening when abroad to see boats of all kinds with ensigns, even down to inflatables, knowing that the owners are expressing pride of ownership. In Sweden and Denmark it is not uncommon to see the national flag being flown in the form of a narrow streamer from houses, and that too shows a sense of national unity. There are enough pressures on the young of today working against our existence as a single nation without people going around who can't be bothered to comply with a harmless tradition by dressing their boats properly.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

It always mystifies me why people should be embarrassed by wearing an ensign. It is not as if wearing were not pretty well universal. Is it self-loathing, or being ashamed of their country? If the latter, then why not emigrate? I find it heartening when abroad to see boats of all kinds with ensigns, even down to inflatables, knowing that the owners are expressing pride of ownership. In Sweden and Denmark it is not uncommon to see the national flag being flown in the form of a narrow streamer from houses, and that too shows a sense of national unity. There are enough pressures on the young of today working against our existence as a single nation without people going around who can't be bothered to comply with a harmless tradition by dressing their boats properly.

Completely agree. We seem to be in the grip of national hand wringing. Even our Eurovision entrant has said she hates Gt Britain