eBorders - What do you want to know?

Eborders falls in a heap

A couple of questions.
Who is being awarded the tender to operate the computer system? What data retention do they have on this and how to FOI requests get files etc.?
If the usual suspects get the contract we don't need to worry as the IT will implode quite quickly and it will be abandoned as being not fit for purpose.

Here is a suggested filing.
Passage plan. Portsmouth and round the world via the three great capes returning in 9 months or so time. Oops, we have a bit of a problem better change the plan and put into Lymington. Tomorrow: Lymington round the world via the three great capes. Oh dear, these westerlies will make rough water round Portland Bill change of plan and put into Weymouth. And so it carries on.
 
snooks said:
What do you want to know about eBorders?

Yachting Monthly would like to know the questions you would like answered about the forthcoming eborders scheme....

Either reply here or Email: dick_durham@ipcmedia.com and we'll see what we can do to get you the information you'd like to know
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When I spoke to them at SIBS, they seemed quite bemused by the reaction they were receiving. This was largely because they admitted they had never been sailing. So, ask them when they are going to remedy that, and actually go on a week or more cruise, or try a channel crossing in a 21' power boat in a 2 month time slot whilst working full time.

They also admitted they had never heard of ybw or similar, and had put all their eggs in one basket of telling the RYA what they wanted boaters to hear. It didn't at that time occur to them that only a tiny minority of boaters receive RYA communications of any sort, never mind read them.

They were invited to put their heads above the parapet here, and in fact I went out of my way to ensure they had a suitable conduit (I went and volunteered Richard Shead and he gave me his business card to pass on once I'd told him what I'd volunteered YBW for! :rolleyes:) though they seem to be doing it one step removed, rather than coming on here themselves?
 
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Pye_End said:
Why are they doing this?

How will the e-borders scheme stop people sneeking across the border without notifying the authorities?
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It won't. Simple as that. This paranoid government is simply using the theory that by increasing regulation and requiring a person to explain his every move then their absolute power is protected. Sounds a bit paranoid and Orwelian I know, but considering that we are now moving towards a single European Union, it seems strange that the requirement to register movement within this union has never been greater (from the UK goervment anyway)

And to anyone who honestly thinks that this will have a positive impact on illegal movement of persons or goods, then all I can say is that the only other group of people who crave such control are the criminals themselves.

That said I'm sure it'll create a few more non economically productive public sector jobs. Go Gordon !!!!!
 
Flag Q

samwise said:
Surely the yellow flag was ignored because there were so few of us coming back from Le Continent with rare and infectious diseases!
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ONE yellow flag not only signals that you are a healthy vessel, but also requests "free pratique" i.e. clearance. TWO yellow flags means I require health clearance, usually from the nearest port medical officer.
 
will there be an "admin fee" or any other charges?

will it be the duty of the skipper or will the crew be liable as well? if a couple are sailing, who decides who the 'skipper' is and who was responsible for filing the passage plan?
 
snooks said:
What do you want to know about eBorders?

Yachting Monthly would like to know the questions you would like answered about the forthcoming eborders scheme....

Either reply here or Email: dick_durham@ipcmedia.com and we'll see what we can do to get you the information you'd like to know
Click to expand...
How will the advance notification requirement apply to the "Turn up and board" system at the channel tunnel? (If it doesn't apply there then there's no point applying it to the relatively small number of people crossing in small vessels.)
Why can't we have a "Morning after" system for small vessels to notify within 24 or 48 hours of arrival? That would give them the same information as the current proposal and is much more likely to be complied with by the majority of skippers.
 
ninky said:
will there be an "admin fee" or any other charges?
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Of course there will be eventually. Just like you get charged for other things you dont want but the govt decides you need.

But the real irritation of this scheme is that we are awash with drugs , smuggled baccy / booze and smuggled people despite all those activities being already illegal. So we know that the E borders scheme wont work to stop the officially identified problem. It will just control the law abiding.
 
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BrendanS said:
They also admitted they had never heard of ybw or similar, and had put all their eggs in one basket of telling the RYA what they wanted boaters to hear. It didn't at that time occur to them that only a tiny minority of boaters receive RYA communications of any sort, never mind read them.
Click to expand...

Government always acts this way, looking for a channel of communication with a special interest group. They do the same with ramblers or birdies or shooters etc. One reason why we should support the RYA who will give the govt a sensible answer from people who know about the reality of sailing. The govt will largely ignore them, having already made up their mind what they want to do and having already given the sofware spec to the French company doing the work.
 
srm said:
Going back to the OP - my understanding, based on observation a couple of years ago is that the UK has an open boarder with the Irish Republic that anyone can walk, drive, or sail across. If this is indeed the case (I am willing to be corrected) how can the eboarders concept actually work?
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Simply because Northern Ireland will be treated almost as a foreign country and while you will be able to cross from the republic into the north without restriction, you will have to complete eborders notification to sail from British N Ireland to the mainland and visa versa. Same with Isle of Man, but then that is so that they can enforce the 90 days IoM residents are allowed in the UK, which will include transit days if you are flying internationally from Heathrow or the like.
 
1) (and only!) How can we go about getting the whole sorry idea scrapped?

This is all giving me a headache. I cannot believe that e-borders is happening - at least that they are trying to apply it to small boats. I don't *want* to believe it.

Mind you, as an IT bod I will guarantee that the system will be:

a) late (take at least twice as long as estimated)
b) more expensive than budgeted (see above)
c) probably horribly unworkable

I suppose scrapping due to IT disaster is the best hope.

Or just taking off in the boat and going elsewhere...
 
Why not report by exception?

The vast majority of international sailing trips from Britain have the same crew returning as left, all of whom have the right to enter the UK. A second group, a minority, will change crew, but all those entering the UK would have the right to do so without impediment. A third category, which makes up a tiny minority of journeys (1%, ...0.1%, ... or less?) involve a change of crew where some of those entering require visas to do so.

Rather than require everyone to register, which will still require random checks to enforce, why not require only those in the third category to register in advance, but still carry out random checks with suitable penalties on categories one and two.

UKBA may think they are achieving something by requiring categories one and two to register, but in practice they will alienate a lot of people, encourage many to misreport and do little to deter people intent on people-smuggling.

Rallyveteran
 
There was a time when most small ports had a customs officer or two. These people knew the locals well and kept a quiet eye on the comings and goings. Some of them even sailed for pleasure. However, they could also be seen to apply their full powers when the situation required it.

This system actually worked. Simple example; two workers on an oil industry barge decided to jump ship in a fairly remote area of Scotland. They had only got a few miles down the road when a car drew up and asked who they were and where they were going. It was the friendly customs officer from the local port about 30 miles away.

And now 'those who know best' thinks they can replace a sensible flexible system that was run by people with forms and computer software. Is there any way of making these bean counters understand that replacing people by machines is neither efficient nor cost effective when the ability to act and make decisions on the spot are the key skills required. At best all these records will achieve is to allow some pen pusher to see that there was no record of the bombers who blew up (enter target of choice) either entering this country with their equipment or leaving.
 
snooks said:
What do you want to know about eBorders?
Click to expand...

1. I am a U.K citizen, and I have the right to go wherever I like in the E.U - how does e-borders sit with this ( especially when most e.u contries have open borders - anyone driven from, say, france to belgium recently?

2. I assume foreign boats will have to comply with these regulations. What is the cost impact on yacht tourism to the U.K and what will the impact be on british jobs. As an aside you might ask them what do you mean you haven't carried out a cost impact assesment of this on foreign yachts. As an example look at the furore here last year over the dutch red deisel regs.

3. Exactly how does this regulation sit with article 13 of the human rights declaration?

I also think YM really should extend an invitation to several bods from the ministry to be sailed over the channel and back over a long weekend - preferably on a boat around, or less than 30 feet.
 
Why the government seems hell bent on introducing a system designed to be difficult for the law abiding to comply with, ie internet only when internet connections for yachts are notoriously poor (the connection in my home marina is very poor, and there is no internet cafe in the town) yet is amazingly easy for the criminal to ignore. If telephone or at a real stretch text reporting on arrival was allowed it would be much easier for the genuine innocents to comply.

Another question may be is this being forced on the poor yachtsmen not because it will improve our border security (I for one do not believe it will) but in reality because it looks as if 'something' is being done and a few otherwise innocent yachties being paraded in chains in the courts will allow ministrers to crow about how they are protecting our shores, and will guarantee employment for some otherwise redundant civil serpents.
 
Typical scenario. Plan to go to France for the bank holiday weekend. Crew me and SWIMBO, fri night daughter decides to come with us. Off to boat (on swinging mooring) fri evening. Forecast poor so decide to go down solent and anchor off Hurst or maybe Studland and see what the morning brings?

A good forecast and off to the CI's so we haven't left the UK! St.Peter Port and then at anchor off Sark. Delay departure due to forecast and back to swinging mooring. Called HMRC's yachtline (really!) They really are not interested said that if they needed to send someone they would come from Dover, I am in Portsmouth harbour! Back home in bed before they would have got to me. E-Borders??

This really happened and I am sure it happens to many. Again I was on passage to the west country and we were so fed up of bashing to windward we went to France instead! How would e-borders sort that one out?

The EU is supposed to have free movement between member states. As my job I spend time travelling around mainland Europe, you can travel from the Baltic to Greece no checks!

Will we have to announce our time and port of arrival? How do we do that from an anchorage in France or the CI's? What about delayed departures? Extra crew picked up in the club after we file our passage plans? What about when we go back to France to collect the yacht after abandoning our trip back due to bad weather?

Unless we can just text or radio the coastguard that we intend to leave the UK (even that can change), and do the same when we get back (back to the days of customs and boarder controls) I cannot see this scheme ever working. Most of us don't have e-mail on board.

As an aside the customs removed their box from my club as they never emptied it! Stuffed full of 1331 forms probably marked 'voyage abandoned'! Will the French have to abide by the UK's rules I think not! Perhaps we should file notice that we will leave every weekend for somewhere 'foreign' either friday or saturday, back sometime sunday or monday maybe not from whence we departed with any 3 or 4 maybe 5 crew chosen from the list supplied of sailing friends and family. Then on Sunday night overload their website with 'voyage abandoned' notices!

And to think it is our money paying for it! a total WOFTAM!
 
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