E10 petrol and outboards

[Halo]

About once a year I fill my 5 l petrol can ready for my tender's Suzuki 2.2 hp two stroke outboard. I am now hearing adverts that petrol pump fuel is changing to E10 and this may not be compatible with old engines. What does the panel advise about using the new stuff in an old two stroke ??

 

[Refueler]

We have E10 in the 95 grade ... E5 in the 98 grade .... been that way for some time ... all my outboards are fine ..

I have no new or recent outboards - the youngest is over 10years old ... Johnson 3 ... others are 1980's ... Evinrude 18 Fasttwin, Mariner 20. Johnson 5 ..

 

[dunedin]

As only using tiny quantities, buy the higher octane super unleaded which I believe is staying unchanged

 

[thinwater]

As only using tiny quantities, buy the higher octane super unleaded which I believe is staying unchanged

Maybe, but check and don't believe the label anyway. They put ethanol in all grades in the US, and in the beginning what the pumps said was not always true.

 

[pvb]

Maybe, but check and don't believe the label anyway. They put ethanol in all grades in the US, and in the beginning what the pumps said was not always true.

In the UK, E10 petrol is already in the pumps, it contains up to 10% ethanol. But higher octane petrol (Tesco Momentum, Shell V-Power, etc) will continue as E5 with up to 5% ethanol content.

 

[Refueler]

In the UK, E10 petrol is already in the pumps, it contains up to 10% ethanol. But higher octane petrol (Tesco Momentum, Shell V-Power, etc) will continue as E5 with up to 5% ethanol content.

The EU and subsequent UK guideline is :

92 .. 95 is 10%
98 is 5%

But that will change in the no too distant future as 10% is on the cards for all grades - pushing aside other enhancers presently used.

 

[VicS]

About once a year I fill my 5 l petrol can ready for my tender's Suzuki 2.2 hp two stroke outboard. I am now hearing adverts that petrol pump fuel is changing to E10 and this may not be compatible with old engines. What does the panel advise about using the new stuff in an old two stroke ??

You have 3 options

1. Use the E10 and replace parts (eg fuel hoses, and pump diaphragms ) as necessary.

2. Replace all the parts which might be affected now and use E10 but check with your dealer. Your engine might already be E10 compatible.

3. Use 98 octane , which at present remains E5

Your choice!
.

 

[mickywillis]

Or use E10 with an Ethanol additive??

 

[oldmanofthehills]

I cant see why ethanol should be more damaging to engine seals than the complex mixture of hydrocarbons (including ethers) in petrol. In my experience petrol is a much more aggressive solvent than alcohol.

So quite probably the manufacturers are just covering their backsides. What is more, if a gasket suffers decay due to solvent and starts leaking one can replace it readily enough.

I my long ago youth we used to stick lab alcohol in the tanks of our motorbikes. Made the exhaust smell nicer but not much change to performance, but no damage

 

[Beneteau381]

I cant see why ethanol should be more damaging to engine seals than the complex mixture of hydrocarbons (including ethers) in petrol. In my experience petrol is a much more aggressive solvent than alcohol.

So quite probably the manufacturers are just covering their backsides. What is more, if a gasket suffers decay due to solvent and starts leaking one can replace it readily enough.

I my long ago youth we used to stick lab alcohol in the tanks of our motorbikes. Made the exhaust smell nicer but not much change to performance, but no damage

Big issue is alcohol "attracting" water

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Big issue is alcohol "attracting" water

Alcohol does not attract water, it mixes with water already there.

If the diluted alcohol stays in suspension with petrol then it simply passes through carburation and into engine. Might cool combustion very slightly but water boost was well used to increase power back in the day.

If the alcohol solution is so water rich that it separates out, then that is no worse than the same water condensing in the tank and dropping to the bottom. All the water will have done then is purge the fuel mixture of some alcohol which might conceivably change the octane rating, but if you had that much water vapour around then the settling of water in bottom of tank or bottom of float chamber will cause you issues anyway

Petrol will also contain some water anyway.

 

[Laysula]

Ethanol in petrol is not new

https://flic.kr/p/egkKKw

 

[davidwf]

If only using a small amount of fuel per year Aspen is a good bet it doesn't age like Petrol, see Aspen Alkylate Petrol | Alkylate Fuel | Aspen Fuel yes its more expensive but if only buying small volumes why worry.

 

[stuartwineberg]

Situation is actually pretty clear. I've just bought a new 4 stroke outboard and the instructions are full of it. Most modern engines will run on E10 but because we dont use a lot of fuel it tends to sit in the tank and you have a risk of phase separation where the ethanol portion separates out. This will damage the engine if used and it cannot be reintegrated into the fuel by shaking/mixing etc. To quote
"increasing the percentage of ethanol in the fuel can worsen these adverse effects. Some of these adverse effects are caused because the ethanol in the gasoline can absorb moisture from the air resulting in a separation of the water/ethanol from the gasoline in the fuel tank. These may cause increased:
Corrosion of metal parts
Deterioration of rubber or plastic
Fuel permeation through fuel lines
Starting and operating difficulties

They recommend an in line water separating filter

They then recommend avoiding storing gasoline in the fuel tank for long periods
I have switched to AFAIK the only ethanol free fuel readily available in the UK which is Esso Supreme. There are parts of the country where even this has 5% ethanol. Check their website. The supreme still has the E5 sticker on it but their website assures us that it is actually ethanol free.
Apologies if I am repeating some stuff from other posts but I thought a condensed view together with quotes from Tohatsu might help

 

[BobnLesley]

Aside from the effects of E10 on the engine components, when in the USA we found that it makes small two-strokes in particular harder to start after which they run as rough as a badger's bum, unless you clean out the carb every few hours; stick to carrying fuel to the boat from an Ethanol free source - we 'imported' fuel from the Bahamas to the USA ?

 

[Refueler]

Or use E10 with an Ethanol additive??

?????

 

[Refueler]

Alcohol does not attract water, it mixes with water already there.

If the diluted alcohol stays in suspension with petrol then it simply passes through carburation and into engine. Might cool combustion very slightly but water boost was well used to increase power back in the day.

If the alcohol solution is so water rich that it separates out, then that is no worse than the same water condensing in the tank and dropping to the bottom. All the water will have done then is purge the fuel mixture of some alcohol which might conceivably change the octane rating, but if you had that much water vapour around then the settling of water in bottom of tank or bottom of float chamber will cause you issues anyway

Petrol will also contain some water anyway.

Correct.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Situation is actually pretty clear. I've just bought a new 4 stroke outboard and the instructions are full of it. Most modern engines will run on E10 but because we dont use a lot of fuel it tends to sit in the tank and you have a risk of phase separation where the ethanol portion separates out. This will damage the engine if used and it cannot be reintegrated into the fuel by shaking/mixing etc. To quote
"increasing the percentage of ethanol in the fuel can worsen these adverse effects. Some of these adverse effects are caused because the ethanol in the gasoline can absorb moisture from the air resulting in a separation of the water/ethanol from the gasoline in the fuel tank. These may cause increased:
Corrosion of metal parts
Deterioration of rubber or plastic
Fuel permeation through fuel lines
Starting and operating difficulties

They recommend an in line water separating filter

They then recommend avoiding storing gasoline in the fuel tank for long periods
I have switched to AFAIK the only ethanol free fuel readily available in the UK which is Esso Supreme. There are parts of the country where even this has 5% ethanol. Check their website. The supreme still has the E5 sticker on it but their website assures us that it is actually ethanol free.
Apologies if I am repeating some stuff from other posts but I thought a condensed view together with quotes from Tohatsu might help

The weasel words are "may cause". Covering backsides with little evidence offered as to likelihood, indeed I cannot see why separated water would destroy rubber or plastic fuel lines, as otherwise much of our house plumbing would self destruct. We have similar nonsense on use of bio fuels with diesel engines. There can be a problem with 100% pure bio on common rail injection due to viscosity which could blow seals, but manufacturers found it easier to issue generic warning against bio rather than pinpoint problem and its solution (admixing with sufficient diesel at pump or in tank).

An inline filter is not a bad idea if having a separate tank but possibly less practical on small dinghy outboard with integral tank.

Drain tank into bucket at end of season then not putting residual water if any back into tank. Store with tank completely full over winter to avoid air temperature changes in tank drawing in moist air, or leave empty

 

[LadyInBed]

I have no concerns about using petrol as supplied at the pump.
If I were to have any, it would be with regard to how the oil mixes with different petrol formulations, but I would assume that the oil manufacturers would be on top of it.

 

[Refueler]

The weasel words are "may cause". Covering backsides with little evidence offered as to likelihood, indeed I cannot see why separated water would destroy rubber or plastic fuel lines, as otherwise much of our house plumbing would self destruct. We have similar nonsense on use of bio fuels with diesel engines. There can be a problem with 100% pure bio on common rail injection due to viscosity which could blow seals, but manufacturers found it easier to issue generic warning against bio rather than pinpoint problem and its solution (admixing with sufficient diesel at pump or in tank).

An inline filter is not a bad idea if having a separate tank but possibly less practical on small dinghy outboard with integral tank.

Drain tank into bucket at end of season then not putting residual water if any back into tank. Store with tank completely full over winter to avoid air temperature changes in tank drawing in moist air, or leave empty

Remember the days of ULSD coming to pumps ... of Unleaded Petrol .... companies such as Mercedes made questionable advisory's against use of such fuel. But is it not funny that another car brand who supplied those engines to Mercedes did not make such advisory's. That after a while Mercedes went quiet on the subject ?