VicS
Well-known member
What is the grade (ie % ethanol) of the spirit blended with gasoline to produce E10 , or other grades of petrol.
100% ( absolute alcohol), the azeotrope containing about 4.5 % water or some other grade?
E10 petrol and outboards
- Thread starter Halo
- Start date
100% ( absolute alcohol), the azeotrope containing about 4.5 % water or some other grade?
mickywillis
Well-known member
Sorry, didn't realise that my wording would cause you such grief and that you were a member of the SPG monitors!
All of the additives I link to contain the word ETHANOL and ADDITIVE, I just missed out the specific words such as PROTECTION and INHIBITOR.
I think most forum members would have a clue what I meant. They are after all "practical" persons.
The FVBHC endorse many of these such additives/stabilisers/reducers or whatever you want to call them, so there must be some point in using them?
Same goes for when we lost 4* fuel and unleaded came onto the market, owners of vehicles with non hardened exhaust valve seats were advised to use LRP with an additive and many of those still run fine (even those without the hardened seats) so there is a good reason why such "fluids" exist?
Refueler
Well-known member
Didn't cause me grief at all ... was just confused by your poor wording .. your later post cleared it up. Unfortunately - you then decided to deride me for not reading your mind or not having a crystal ball to gaze into ..
I spent many years in the Additive game .. was one of the first LaRoute operational units, still have connection with the major Additive producers such as Baker Hughes, Exxon etc.
So any lecture you care to give on Additives ?
Just to inform you simply : The additives you see on the Auto Shop shelves are a) overpriced, b) poor relation to industry additives, c) most a waste of money ....
Refueler
Well-known member
Sorry I cannot advise you on that because of the different suppliers and qualities used. The variance can be significant and I will not pass on such on a public forum - nor in PM. Second that I am not a Chemist - I rely on the Chemists to inform me of the components quality so I can enter into my Blend Programs ... which are to verify or discuss with Client who has already created his blend formula. The quality of each can be significantly different depending on source.
All I can say is that the public understanding of Ethanol and other Octane Enhancers is distorted by misinformed media and others. The fixation on Ethanol is good in one way though - it focuses attention away from other components .....
Gasoline today can be a combination of anywhere from 3 .. 4 or even as many as 12+ products to produce the blend for a market. Not all markets are same.
Just to throw a curved ball ... Alkylates are a common part of the gasoline market ... read that as you like ..
oldmanofthehills
Well-known member
My guess would be the azetrope thus the readily available 95% stuff such as I was slopping around for sanitiser as thats what you can get from simple distillation, resulting in a 10% alcohol fuel having 0.45% water. Any alcohol purer would be much more costly to buy as requiring further process to remove that last 4.5%, but would be hygroscopic and would tend to deteriorate to that kind of concentration.
Petrol will also some absorb water on its own
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mickywillis
Well-known member
I doff my cap to your greater knowledge, You say you spent years in the additive market, but have not really replied to the OP's question though?
I assume that you are not based in the UK as you mention that "you already have E10 here in 95 grade" You also mention "Auto Shops" which to me sounds like a US term, the UK uses terms such as Motor Factors or Car Parts Suppliers.
If that is the case, then what have been the repercussions of E10 on older engines where you are based?
What would be your recommendations for pre 1994 engines as most manufacturers are suggesting the E10 may not be suitable for them ? As you discredit additives sold by suppliers and recommended by various governing bodies in the UK, what would you do?
Refueler
Well-known member
I happen to be a Brit who left UK and now live in Latvia ...
I am well aware of UK fuel market as that one of the major markets I blended for ... along with EU, West Africa and Caribbean (which usually went into USA for further blending).
Blends were 91 .. 93 .. 95 .. 97 Octanes (RON) Gasolines ... regular Gasoil for Agri / Red which was then superceded by LSD for UK ,... FOD 41 / FOD 49 for French ... LSD and ULSD for general EU. When LSD was superceded in UK - we were already blending Bio's into mainstream before delivery to such as Thames Storage etc.
All grades and Products received Additives of Industrial format/ strength that you can never obtain. Additives range covered Blend stabilisers .. Oxydation and Gum stability, Lubricity, Octane and Cetane enhancers just to mention a few.
As to answering OP's question ... what is it about my answer post #2 you don't understand ?
All those outboards are UK / EU standards - not US or other ... they've been using E10 as long as its been in the stations here.
As to the latter part of your post - my post #2 has answered that as well .... basically I've done nothing except enjoy running my engines as always.
Your 'off shelf additives' ... you obviously don't understand how certification and approvals are obtained .... you can produce a product and carefully word your Approval requirements ... body approves ... label says approved by ... I kid you not. Its harder with Petrochems to do that - but it is still done ... just careful on what specs are tested.
And - I did not say they did not work .. its just that they are generally grossly overpriced and extremely weak acting. You can waste your money on them as often the effect you expect is not what they can deliver. Second that we take extreme care in the industry to use compatible additives .. that is additives that are not inihibited by any other we use in same product.
If you choose to use Ethanol blockers - that's your choice. Personally I would not - but that's MY choice. A better operational regime is to be careful in storage, use and any spare cans etc. - closed tight, cool and dark place.
Just to close this off ....
Pal of mine runs the local Husqvarna / Jonsered Service ... he's not just a spanner wielder - but a serious excellent small engine guy who can fix just about any small engine be it outboard or lawn tractor etc.
He's always moaning about gasoline we have today ...
Now before you jump up and cheer ..... his moans are two fold ............ one the more regular servicing of carbs and injection systems due to the modern carbs / injection systems and second that of the gasoline blend.
Here - I can get pre-Ethanol gasoline - but I have to travel across country to Russian Border ... we'll leave it that about supply. That 'clean' gasoline STILL - the modern carbs and systems - he found had more servicing required .....
In terms of such as membrane carbs such as Warlbro - many engines are now using Chinese copies and they suffer regardless of ethanol or not.
Happy now ?
mickywillis
Well-known member
Never been happier, that explains everything!
Beneteau381
Well-known member
From todays telegraph
ENVIRONMENT
Share
Eco-petrol fuels move to electric mowers
E10-related engine woes will push more gardeners to select battery-powered alternatives to cut the lawn
Olivia RudgardENVIRONMENT CORRESPONDENT
FOR decades thousands of Britons have relied on the trusty petrol-powered mower to maintain a neat green lawn.
But plans to introduce a more eco-friendly petrol may mean that its days are numbered – as one of Britain’s leading mower brands, a supplier to the Royal Household, plans a switch to electricity.
Allett Mowers’ top seller is electricNew E10 petrol, which has 10 per cent ethanol content, can damage lawnmower engines, with some manufacturers warning against its use.
The petrol will appear on forecourts next month and is being introduced in a bid to reduce the amount of fossil fuel needed and cut carbon dioxide emissions.
Lawnmower dealers and manufacturers said the move might accelerate a growing trend for consumers to opt for battery-powered or electric alternatives.
The current E5 petrol will still be available to buy under the Super Unleaded pump, but it may become less widely sold and will be more expensive, motoring experts said.
Widely existing E5 petrol can also be problematic for lawnmower engines if left to sit for more than a few weeks, manufacturers warned, but the problem is more acute with E10.
Allett Mowers, a Stafford-based business dating back to 1965, which makes premium mowers to supply to football clubs and country houses, says it plans to phase out petrol-powered lawnmowers by 2025.
Austin Jarrett, the company’s managing director, said electric mowers were quieter, pollution-free and required less maintenance. He said: “Already up to 50 per cent of unit sales is electric [and] our two biggest selling products are now electric.”
Plant fuel Environmental benefits of UK’s new petrol
From next month, E10 will be supplied from unleaded pumps at petrol stations in the UK, replacing E5. Widely available in the US, Europe and Australia, E10 is being introduced for environmental reasons. It contains 10 per cent ethanol, which is derived from crops such as wheat or other grains. The production of such crops removes carbon dioxide from the air. The change could cut transport CO2 emissions by 750,000 tons a year, the equivalent of taking 350,000 cars off the road.
The company’s website warns customers that ethanol in petrol “causes corrosion to fuel components and attracts water.
Gary Whitney, managing director of Italy-based lawnmower manufacturer Stiga, which also has a growing battery-powered division, said he thought the fuel change might push customers to opt for electric or battery-powered alternatives, which are increasingly affordable.
“Because it’s got so much more publicity, this change, I can imagine it having an impact on some people’s buying decision, maybe just accelerating a change from petrol to battery,” he said.
The company’s lawnmowers can be used with E10 fuel, he said, as long as the engine is not left to sit with fuel inside for long periods.
“The big problem will come when they go to E15. Fifteen per cent ethanol will really start to give performance issues on petrol engines,” he said.
A fuel stabiliser can be added to the fuel, which will prevent it from attracting water, he added.
Greenkeepers, who maintain golf courses, are also increasingly switching to battery-powered equipment, the British and International Golf Greenkeepers Association said, though diesel has historically been the main fuel used in that industry.
Mark Tasker, the director of Maelor Farm & Garden Ltd in Wrexham, said: “People I think will be convinced to buy more battery once this E10 goes up. I’ve sold quite a bit of battery stuff – a lot of people don’t want the hassle of adding petrol and starting it up any more.”
LadyInBed
Well-known member
The issue appears to relate to / aimed at four stroke engines.
Would using a two stroke with the oil mixed in help to negate the issue?
Also, I assume that turning the fuel off and letting the engine run on to drain the carb will help.
Refueler
Well-known member
Running carbs dry is and has always been before E5 .. E10 ... a better way to stop and stand a 2 stroker ... unless you are going to restart it shortly after.
Outboard Service in UK - I used advocated run dry stops.
Outboard Service I use here - advocates run dry stops.
penberth3
Well-known member
So what? These are adverts from people trying to sell Battery lawnmowers. Not the best source of reliable information.
Refueler
Well-known member
Steve65
Active member
I have had lots of repairs come my way due to Aspen. Alkylites tend to damage plug coatings causing failures. Its not a coincidence.....In the past 3 years every single honda 2 or 2.3 that has come in with plug failure has been run on Aspen
Refueler
Well-known member
All gasoline today is a blend of many different components ...... generally it is a bulk blend and then high octane product is introduced to obtain the required levels.
Alkylates are a part of near all blends today. Aspen just appears to make theirs a larger % ... which will then need corrector products to obtain the general spec for target grade.
Steve65
Active member
Refueler
Well-known member
Hi Steve65 ..... thought there would be a comment as well ??
Graham376
Well-known member
Surprised to hear so many are using it at that price. Using 10L+/week, think I'll just stick to pump E5 grade. Must check what the marina will be supplying in future.
Steve65
Active member
From the look and smell of Aspen it seems to be a b
Sorry...no idea what happened there
thinwater
Well-known member
In fact, ethanol is more aggressive to certain elastomers and fiberglass resins. I suspect this was greater impact in the US, when E10 was introduced in the 1980s and much of the equipment was not compatible. Many fiberglass tanks were ruined and hoses would go bad. The USCG started requiring ethanol-proof hose about 1985, because bad hoses were causing fires. It was a very big deal.
As a result, nearly all equipment (world wide) manufactured since the mid-80s uses ethanol compatible parts.
