Do I need radar to cross the channel?

[MapisM]

To be honest even with Radar I expect most pleasure boaters would delay a trip if fog was forecast

True. BUT!
It's funny to see how most boaters seem to associate fog to the most critical condition in which radar might be necessary - or extremely useful, anyway.
As I tried to explain in my post #20, the worst conditions are when the zero visibility is due to heavy rain, not to fog.
And that makes a helluva difference in the skills/experience required to properly use the radar.
Forget auto tuning in those conditions. Either you can fine tune the controls manually, or you won't distinguish clutter from an island.
Otoh, how many of us would delay a trip just because occasional summer showers are predicted...?

 

[DAKA]

True. BUT!
It's funny to see how most boaters seem to associate fog to the most critical condition in which radar might be necessary - or extremely useful, anyway.
As I tried to explain in my post #20, the worst conditions are when the zero visibility is due to heavy rain, not to fog.
And that makes a helluva difference in the skills/experience required to properly use the radar.
Forget auto tuning in those conditions. Either you can fine tune the controls manually, or you won't distinguish clutter from an island.
Otoh, how many of us would delay a trip just because occasional summer showers are predicted...?

I think you make light of 'summer showers'.

I have been caught in a hail storm which hurt and blacked out the radar screen as you described.

That day there were VHF reports of localised 50 knot squalls, there were warnings.


Another day I was caught out in a series of Spanish Plumes ?sp? which again created large black blobs.

A female sailing buddy had forecast those 8 days in advance and women and children were travailing by bus that day !



Crossing the channel can be really enjoyable as long as you study the weather and choose conditions to suit your crew and boat.

At best Radar may marginally increase the number of crossing possibilities in a season for very experienced crew, other than that it just makes you feel a bit safer.

 

[KevB]

So you don't know what you are missing.

Rather like saying that your house has stood for 250 years, that means it could fall down tomorrow.

I don't know of many houses that are maintained that just fall down, do you?

If the forecast was for fog or heavy rain I wouldn't cross the channel with or without radar.
If a radar makes you feel more secure that's fine.

But...

You do not need a radar to cross the channel. I doubt many consider is a necessity, a nice to have at best.

Maybe we should ask the question... How many would NOT cross the channel without a radar.

 

[DAKA]

I don't know of many houses that are maintained that just fall down, do you?

If the forecast was for fog or heavy rain I wouldn't cross the channel with or without radar.
If a radar makes you feel more secure that's fine.

But...

You do not need a radar to cross the channel. I doubt many consider is a necessity, a nice to have at best.

Maybe we should ask the question... How many would NOT cross the channel without a radar.

I think you will find the same ones that respond that they wouldnt cross if their radar broke are the same ones who wouldnt cross if their fridge broke down and prefer to stay in Port Solent planning next years BIG trip

Daft thing is I bet they also have stainless steel anchors/chain too which are unsafe in certain conditions.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

As I tried to explain in my post #20, the worst conditions are when the zero visibility is due to heavy rain, not to fog.
And that makes a helluva difference in the skills/experience required to properly use the radar.
Forget auto tuning in those conditions. Either you can fine tune the controls manually, or you won't distinguish clutter from an island.
Otoh, how many of us would delay a trip just because occasional summer showers are predicted...?

Agreed that you need to be able to manually adjust the radar controls for heavy rain showers and I have experienced the kind of showers you talk about in Croatia myself. But we are talking here not about spotting islands on your radar (which are shown on your plotter anyway) but spotting fast moving ships in the English Channel which is one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world. The problem is that fog banks in the middle of the Channel are often not accurately forecast and they occur in just the kind of weather that encourages boaters to be crossing the Channel ie warm, sunny weather with little wind caused by slack pressure gradients. The kind of rain we get in the UK does not impede visibility as badly as the kind of fog we get here and in any case, heavy rain is associated with weather conditions that would discourage a Channel crossing anyway. So, what I'm saying is that fog is usually the big problem crossing the Channel, not heavy rain, and especially so in the early summer when sea temps in the middle of the Channel are relatively low

 

[boatmike]

I expect the skipper of Wahkuna thought much the same:
http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources/nedlloyd vespucci and wahkuna.pdf

The colouring is mine: The blue bit is pertinent to this thread. The red bit is pertinent to the (frequent) discussions about whether it is "common sense" for pleasure craft to make up their own colregs as they go along.

Tim that reinforces what I said earlier and you should also have highlighted "The inability of the yacht's skipper to use radar effectively" This is indeed a classic example of a radar assisted collision and a major cause of the problem was the skippers misinterpretation of what he saw on the radar screen. Unfortunately when all you have is a blip on the screen and don't know the other vessels true course and speed it is easy to see that a close approach is looming but it is not immediately obvious what the correct avoiding action is according to colregs without a lot of experience. Usually candidates start out on a basic radar training course thinking they can easily decide what the correct course of action is and are rapidly dissilusioned. It's just not that easy!

 

[timbartlett]

I suppose you're referring to the discussions with those criminals like myself who would steer to port when they are the stand on vessel, to give way to ships.
I'm curious, what exactly do you think we (I mean, the common sense brigade) would have done in such situation?

No idea. I'm afraid that once someone decides that it is "common sense" to ignore the colregs, then my abilty to predict their movements vanishes -- as does that of the watchkeeper on an approaching ship.

In this case, though, we do know exactly what the skipper of the yacht did. He was about to pass clear ahead of the ship. He could, perhaps, have "widened the gap" by speeding up. But he didn't. He decided, instead, to "give way" by stopping in the path of the approaching ship.

He was not a stupid man, nor an incompetent one, but neither he, nor any of his crew, knew how to interpret the moving blobs. And although I am sure that everything they did made perfect sense to those on board the yacht, it did not look that way to the watchkeepers on the approaching ship, who were so confused by the yacht's movements that they did nothing at all.

Bear in mind that this is a real situation -- one of very few actual collisions between ships and pleasure craft, and one of even fewer in which the watchkeepers on both vessels have survived to give their evidence. And what we see is that this ship had altered course for another small radar contact a few minutes earlier, and was ready to alter course for Wahkuna, but did not do so because the yacht's erratic behaviour made her Master unable to decide what action he should take.

 

[MapisM]

No idea. I'm afraid that once someone decides that it is "common sense" to ignore the colregs, then my abilty to predict their movements vanishes -- as does that of the watchkeeper on an approaching ship.

Fairenuff, but I don't think the case you posted gives any evidence that the collision happened because of a non-colreg compliant behaviour which the common sense brigade suggested in previous discussions.
Otoh, if all you wanted to say is that common sense alone is not enough, well, I couldn't agree more - and never said the opposite.
Frinstance, I said previously that interpreting correctly a radar screen is not as trivial as someone suggest, didn't I?

 

[timbartlett]

Fairenuff, but I don't think the case you posted gives any evidence that the collision happened because of a non-colreg compliant behaviour which the common sense brigade suggested in previous discussions.

The point I was trying to make (in passing) is that the Master of the ship was ready, willing and able to alter course if necessary for a small vessel crossing him in accordance with the rules, but the yacht's inconsistent behaviour made it impossible for him to determine what would make the situation better, and what would make it worse.

 

[MapisM]

The point I was trying to make (in passing)...

Mmm... In passing maybe, but with a red highlight and an ironic comment on those who "make up their own colregs"...
[/offtopic]

PS: on 2nd thought, why are you saying that the ship Master was ready to alter course "in accordance with the rules"? Wasn't it the stand on vessel?

 

[mm1]

Montemar(radar)

Hi Montemar was just wondering how useful you found the considerable post in response to your o p ,it is customary to respond occasionally.given the large n/o of posts it would seem a tad rude not to. Also I wouldn't take to heart what searush has to say he is a devil !!regards mm1.

 

[Skysail]

"Wasn't it the stand on vessel?"

There is NO stand on vessel in fog. How can you tell what the other vessel is? Please see Rule 19.

A radar course would make it clear.
.

 

[hlb]

I'll just add, that just about every time I have crossed the "English" chanel, I have had to stop or change direction a number of times, to avoid the many ships.

Unlike the Irish sea where Searush is based, where you hardly ever come across a ship.

 

[Montemar]

MM1 thankyou, I was perusing the very interesting info and trying to apply some sort of priority to the comments.
Timbartlett's post makes me wonder how much more useful AIS would have been, I think DAKA's comment about using the wonga for fuel instead carries quite some weight however there is a recurrent theme about getting caught out, planning or no planning, and that is my concern.
I do not have many years of experience behind me and must therefore exercise considerable care as 'er indoors can be more dangerous than a fog bank! I also fully take the point that Radar needs to be learned though pleased that modern stuff is easier to operate.
It seems that Radar is a safety aid as is AIS. I would, like many, go out in exactly the weather conditions where fog is likely. Therefore I should get Radar and AIS and learn how to use it, the RYA do a course I think.
Question: within what distance of the boat is a collision a real danger as opposed to something that is avoidable? It ties in with the choice of Broadband vs pulse. I reckon that if it is less than a mile you need to do something asap and Broadband covers that well.

 

[mm1]

Hi my radar is of the older vintage so would not like to comment which is best,have to say though that pulse is good @ long & short range.my radar operator would normally advise me of other vessels @ about 3 n m & then we make our intentions clear @ approx 1.5 n m.we have had very bad unforecast fog whilst crossing the channel in April,May,June &August.The radar is also a very useful back up if the GPS goes down, once we arrived in very thick fog @ Cherbourg with very poor GPS signal we were able to find our way with the help of the radar showing our position in relation to the inner & outer breakwater swmbo was most impressed it's her favourite piece of kit,regards mm1

 

[hlb]

MM1
Question: within what distance of the boat is a collision a real danger as opposed to something that is avoidable? It ties in with the choice of Broadband vs pulse. I reckon that if it is less than a mile you need to do something asap and Broadband covers that well.

A danger of colision can be found at any distance.

Forget AIS or broadband. Heres the beauty of radar. I forget what it's called for the minute. But you can put a line from any suspect vessel, to your own, from when ever you pick it up, which may be twelve miles away or more. If the ship stays on that line for a few miles, there will be a colision, unless some one alters course, knowing in advance just where and how far the ship is, means that you just need to make minor changes to course, to avoid it.

A mile will disapear awfull fast with two boats doing more than twenty knots and the ship is not going to be able to do much about it, so It's up to you.

I can not remember the number of times, i've seen a ship passing and stopped, twenty yards from it, to wave at the crew as it goes past.

The point is, to never get into a colision course, it is delt with, long before it ever got serious, or some one had to take avoiding action.

 

[timbartlett]

Mmm... In passing maybe, but with a red highlight and an ironic comment on those who "make up their own colregs"...

It was red because I had already used black and blue. Yellow doesn't show up very well, and I don't like green.

The point I was making was that the Master of the ship didn't take avoiding action because the yacht did not appear to be acting consistently, so he couldn't tell what action to take.

PS: on 2nd thought, why are you saying that the ship Master was ready to alter course "in accordance with the rules"? Wasn't it the stand on vessel?

See Rule 19.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I forget what it's called for the minute. But you can put a line from any suspect vessel, to your own

EBL - electronic bearing line. As you say, a v useful feature that allows you to ascertain whether another vessel is on a potential collision course with your vessel. Should be used in conjunction with VRM - variable range marker to ascertain whether the vessel is getting closer to your vessel. Constant EBL + getting closer = risk of collision

 

[gjgm]

MM1 thankyou, I was perusing the very interesting info and trying to apply some sort of priority to the comments.
Timbartlett's post makes me wonder how much more useful AIS would have been, I think DAKA's comment about using the wonga for fuel instead carries quite some weight however there is a recurrent theme about getting caught out, planning or no planning, and that is my concern.
I do not have many years of experience behind me and must therefore exercise considerable care as 'er indoors can be more dangerous than a fog bank! I also fully take the point that Radar needs to be learned though pleased that modern stuff is easier to operate.
It seems that Radar is a safety aid as is AIS. I would, like many, go out in exactly the weather conditions where fog is likely. Therefore I should get Radar and AIS and learn how to use it, the RYA do a course I think.
Question: within what distance of the boat is a collision a real danger as opposed to something that is avoidable? It ties in with the choice of Broadband vs pulse. I reckon that if it is less than a mile you need to do something asap and Broadband covers that well.

AIS will tell you where the big stuff is, and personally, that is the stuff I am afraid of. With a range of 10-20 miles, that is alot of shipping that you can see for a very long pre-warning.
If you want something cheap and simple, I think it is a huge aid. If you have the resources of another £1k and the space to fit radar, then why not. But is it NECESSARY ? No.

 

[boatmike]

MM1 thankyou, I was perusing the very interesting info and trying to apply some sort of priority to the comments.
Timbartlett's post makes me wonder how much more useful AIS would have been, I think DAKA's comment about using the wonga for fuel instead carries quite some weight however there is a recurrent theme about getting caught out, planning or no planning, and that is my concern.
I do not have many years of experience behind me and must therefore exercise considerable care as 'er indoors can be more dangerous than a fog bank! I also fully take the point that Radar needs to be learned though pleased that modern stuff is easier to operate.
It seems that Radar is a safety aid as is AIS. I would, like many, go out in exactly the weather conditions where fog is likely. Therefore I should get Radar and AIS and learn how to use it, the RYA do a course I think.
Question: within what distance of the boat is a collision a real danger as opposed to something that is avoidable? It ties in with the choice of Broadband vs pulse. I reckon that if it is less than a mile you need to do something asap and Broadband covers that well.

You seem to be generally on the right track but regarding "less than a mile" and broadband I think you need to consider that the situation usually encountered is never quite as simple as avoiding one hazard. Approaching traffic separation lanes you will be faced with a series of vessels all going generally in the same direction at similar speeds usually. Approaching these from about 6 miles off you can generally adjust your course and speed to pass between them safely. Unless you have a very powerful set 12 miles is the usual maximum governed not just by power but height of antenna. Frankly you don't need more than this but you do need enough power to get a reliable return at this distance. Also EBL as has been mentioned is useful as is the ability to set wakes (the track that the vessel has made relative to your own vessel) which when you get used to it will enable you to adjust speed and/or course to ensure that you never get as close as a mile anyway. Colregs generally work on the principle that any course change to avoid collision should be made early enough and decisively enough to avoid confusion and in this respect if you monitor from 6 miles and if in doubt make a course change at about 3 miles you can not only avoid the primary target but ensure that you have not inadvertantly turned directly into the path of another. It's a good plan usually to aim to pass within 1/4 to 1/2 mile behind the closest vessel which will often put you well ahead of any following. At 6 miles out you can plan this with confidence. Within a mile in my opinion is too late. Hope this helps. Why not sign up on a course before buying anything? Most are good fun and you seem very willing to learn so go for it!