Do I need radar to cross the channel?

[benjenbav]

I'm not saying it is, but I agree with SR and the others who suggest it's not trivial, either.
Problem is, if you play with the radar "when you do not actually need it", adjusting the gain a bit after each range change, and you think to have learned all there's to learn, you're bound to think again whenever you'll REALLY need it.
I've been a few times in heavy rain (and by heavy I mean heavy enough to not see the burgee at the bow, while helming from the p/house), while cruising inside islets along the Croatian coast.
Fully instrumental navigation: I could have left the windshield covers on, it wasn't even worth using the wipers.
And in one case, also the sea conditions were pretty bad, so the boat was bouncing around quite a bit (which in turn affects also the radar reading).
Believe me, it was not easy at all to understand if some radar returns were other boats, clouds full of rain or islands.
And needless to say, such differences affect your route options quite a bit...

On my boat, in any sort of wind over tide conditions at night it's a case of wipers off and drive on instruments (especially radar). I wouldn't want to be without it.

The crossing would have to be wholly in the daytime with no fog forecast before I would want to embark on it without radar.

 

[Skysail]

Not for UK leisure craft.

"Rule 7

Risk of collision

(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.

(b) Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational, including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects."

Depends whether you think the Colregs have the force of law.

Personally I do.

But no, radar is not essential; I did a few dozen X Channels without it, but when fog appeared I did feel the need!

One boat on the same passage managed to motor over the tow lines of an oil rig in clear moonlight because he failed to see the tugs. Admittedly the tugs were very small compared to the rig, which was a blaze of white light and appeared to be the size of the Isle of Wight. We saw the tugs on radar and went astern of the rig.

 

[sailorman]

"Rule 7

Risk of collision

(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.

(b) Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational, including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects."

Depends whether you think the Colregs have the force of law.

Personally I do.

But no, radar is not essential; I did a few dozen X Channels without it, but when fog appeared I did feel the need!

One boat on the same passage managed to motor over the tow lines of an oil rig in clear moonlight because he failed to see the tugs. Admittedly the tugs were very small compared to the rig, which was a blaze of white light and appeared to be the size of the Isle of Wight. We saw the tugs on radar and went astern of the rig.

[We saw the tugs on radar and went astern of it!]

Tug , rig or both
__________________

 

[Skysail]

Thank you!

 

[boatmike]

There's no way I could mount 1500 squids worth of electronics out in the open cockpit of my ketch. The risks of damage to it (or crewmembers) from rope & sail handling, seaway movement, rain, ice & even theft is far too great.

It would have to be below & thus not visible from the helm. Fine if you are sat indoors at your steering wheel with the screen on the desk in front of you, but my elderly yacht is not built like that!

Searush old bean I agree with some of what you said earlier. Good training in the use of Radar is highly desirable and self taught skippers who have never heard of a "radar assisted collision" should take care, but for a sensible hominid who can read there are lots of good books and literature available. As far as your elderly ketch is concerned..... erm.... you are on the Motor Boat forum where most skippers mount the screen in front of the helm seat looking out of the windscreen (doh!)

 

[sailorman]

Searush old bean I agree with some of what you said earlier. Good training in the use of Radar is highly desirable and self taught skippers who have never heard of a "radar assisted collision" should take care, but for a sensible hominid who can read there are lots of good books and literature available. As far as your elderly ketch is concerned..... erm.... you are on the Motor Boat forum where most skippers mount the screen in front of the helm seat looking out of the windscreen (doh!)

in anything of a seaway a radar on a small boat is far from accurate at reading target course steered ( even with mmarpa). the vessel will be yawing too much.
you will get a reasonable distance off thats it.
you will hopefully see "whats about" the rest is better with Mk 1 eyeball & hand bearing compass

 

[LittleShip]

"Rule 7

(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.

(b) Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational, including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects."

Depends whether you think the Colregs have the force of law.

Thanks Skysail, I knew it was required to be used but couldnt find the quote.

Those two paragraphs deem that if fitted it should/must be used.

I have however crossed the channel many times without Radar and I'm still here to tell the tale

To each their own as we say.

Tom

 

[Searush]

Searush old bean I agree with some of what you said earlier. Good training in the use of Radar is highly desirable and self taught skippers who have never heard of a "radar assisted collision" should take care, but for a sensible hominid who can read there are lots of good books and literature available. As far as your elderly ketch is concerned..... erm.... you are on the Motor Boat forum where most skippers mount the screen in front of the helm seat looking out of the windscreen (doh!)

Goodness! Am I really? Who'd have thought it! Where are the proper boaters then?

What about the sportboats, bowriders & sppedboats etc? Am I to assume that they must fit radar to venture out to sea?

 

[DougH]

What about the sportboats, bowriders & sppedboats etc? Am I to assume that they must fit radar to venture out to sea?

Searush, you are so predictable.

This is a good thread so why try to ridicule something you have no experience of. (Modern Radar)

 

[Sandyman]

Bit like fog lights, you dont need them either, humm, till there is fog.

OP should scrub round fitting radar and make sure he has fog lights fitted. Wouldn't want to go to sea without fog lights would you.

 

[mm1]

Radar

Hi we first crossed the channel without radar in convoy with 2other boats, one of which had it,we came back a day early because fog was forecast & did not want to get caught out,however there was fog & it was very unpleasant .since then we have crossed many/many times & wouldn't dream of crossing without radar now,as fog is often not forecast but is often there!.it will give you great peace of mind.you do not have to go very expensive but more than worthwhile investing in a simple radar!also I am a big believer in keeping it simple & swmbo is radar op & wouldn't go anywhere without it.it also keeps her busy on the crossing.if you can afford it treat yourself you will be surprised how useful it is,regards mm1

 

[Searush]

Searush, you are so predictable.

This is a good thread so why try to ridicule something you have no experience of. (Modern Radar)

In no way am I ridiculing radar (modern or otherwise). It is a nice bit of kit to have - but I am ridiculing the "Don't leave the Marina without it" brigade.

Mind you I suppose using your ears is a bit pointless when you are battened down inside a cabin with the heater on & two humungous engines drowning out all except the stereo. You see, on a raggie, you can hear the other boats - even when they aren't making any signals, even if they're sail powered, you can hear their wash. Bit more tricky to be sure of the direction or range tho, so not quite as good as radar.

I like this forum I learn a lot about the difference between sailing a boat & driving one. That helps me keep safe too.

 

[DougH]

In no way am I ridiculing radar (modern or otherwise). It is a nice bit of kit to have - but I am ridiculing the "Don't leave the Marina without it" brigade.

Mind you I suppose using your ears is a bit pointless when you are battened down inside a cabin with the heater on & two humungous engines drowning out all except the stereo. You see, on a raggie, you can hear the other boats - even when they aren't making any signals, even if they're sail powered, you can hear their wash. Bit more tricky to be sure of the direction or range tho, so not quite as good as radar.

I like this forum I learn a lot about the difference between sailing a boat & driving one. That helps me keep safe too.

OK, I understand you first paragraph and would agree that for most boaters who hug the coast and do not travel out of sight of land you are not wrong.

However your 2nd paragraph shows just how out of touch you are with reality.

No motor boat with a flybridge would be driven in fog from in the saloon and certainly not with the stereo on.

The 900 hp twin MAN engines on my boat are not noisy by any measure and when people are travelling inside the saloon they are always commenting on how quiet it is.

I travel around the Med frequently out of sight of land and on the occasions when we have met Sea Mist or Fog the Radar has enabled us to proceed in safety.

You appear to present yourself as an old Sea Dog who is very well versed in all aspects of marine activities but when you say you can hear other sailing boats in fog you make yourself appear rather foolish.

Come out mid Channel with me when there is thick fog and I will position us in the area where other vessels are present and will turn the off the engines and cover the radar.

Whilst I study the radar I would love to hear your comments on where the vessels are and in which direction they are travelling.

 

[maverickofpoole]

My first channel crossing was in perfectly flat conditions in May 2007. I never had radar but fortunately viz although a little hazy we could still see a reasonable distance. On our 2nd day we were aiming to leave St Perter Port and go up to the Schole Bank to fish for turbot and the like. Come the morning it was just like a summers day in the harbour, perfectly clear with no indication of fog however less than a mile from harbour and it was like this

I stuck on my mates tail at 12-14knots praying he knew what he was doing fortunately he did and we arrived at our destination unscathed and had a good day's fishing taboot.

I have only just got (may 2011) radar on my boat and what a god send it is to have. The problem with fog is it can be a pea souper inshore/harbour but then clear when 1/2 mile offshore or can be the other way around and catch you out offshore. At least with radar you can see what’s around you and if the sea isn't to lumpy maybe even buoys etc. I have been across the channel with and without and although I am not that conversant with radar have found it useful and easy to use.

With modern radar you will get acceptable performance without tweaking any of the controls. Another plus I have found is it's good at poaching other fishermen’s marks

All in all a good tool and I would reccomend having it if affordable to you.

Martin

 

[LittleShip]

I stuck on my mates tail at 12-14knots

Not knocking you but, thats the problem with fog......... both in cars and boats.

Tom

 

[maverickofpoole]

I stuck on my mates tail at 12-14knots

Not knocking you but, thats the problem with fog......... both in cars and boats.

Tom

Agread but we had only two other choices 1 going blind at 4 knots or 2 turning around and going back to the bar. With hindsight the bar should of been favourite but I'm not good at making those decisions as my heart rules

Martin

 

[DougH]

Montemar, purely out of interest what is your take on all the advice you have been given.

 

[Montemar]

Montemar, purely out of interest what is your take on all the advice you have been given.

Thanks for asking as I am most grateful for the quantity and quality of advice received.
It seems that radar is a very good thing from a safety point of view but it needs to be learnt to make any use of it. Fog, whilst it can be forecast, also seems to be unpredictable and I would not wish to be caught in it. Even with all this technology it seems a leap of faith would be required to put one's trust in a 7" display!
I would also be inclined to augment radar with AIS as the latter should help clarify the former.
Broadband radar looks like the best option. I would expect to be able to clearly see potential dangers a few miles away which is where Broadband is strong. It appears that the greater definition offered by Bb would make it easier to interpret.
It looks like I should flash the cash and get learning before I need to use it in anger especially as I anticipate going further afield so its use will surely be needed one day!
Broadband or pulse what do you think?

 

[maverickofpoole]

Don't know how true this is but I was told by an electronics supplier who is also a friend that BB radar is excellent for close'ish work but not so good at long range and that HD radar was probably a better all-rounder. I went for 4kw HD radar and fitted class b ais transceiver at the same time. I am suitably impressed with the radar and on the occasions it has worked with the ais also. I have suffered 2 failed ais units, the manufacturer has now given me the next model up so not sure if there was an underlying problem with the original units time will tell I guess.

Martin

 

[MapisM]

I am ridiculing the "Don't leave the Marina without it" brigade.
...
on a raggie, you can hear the other boats - even when they aren't making any signals, even if they're sail powered, you can hear their wash.

Fwiw, I left the marina without the radar with all the boats I had bar the last, so I'm not in that brigade, if there is one.

But I don't dare thinking what I could have done in the heavy rain conditions I described previously, without a radar.
During which, btw, we had to scream between myself and swmbo to hear each other, even if we were inside a fully enclosed pilothouse.
Rest assured that no raggie on earth would have been able to hear his own wash - let alone the one from other boats - in those conditions.
I even doubt that I could have heard a fog horn, unless maybe the one of a ferry, 2 seconds before hitting it...