Distress Messages

[Dutch01527]

:encouragement: Then it absolutely doesnt matter if you are on a Supertanker or a Snapdragon, those that you are asking to help you will get the best possible information they need to....help you.

The “ best possible information” is your position, nature of emergency and information to identify your boat. Lat and Long and MMSI does that for the coast guard but does not do that for your potentially closest rescuers, small boats locally. Boat name, description and position related to a well known local landmark does for all potential rescuers imho.

To be a little silly to illustrate the point would “ Mayday, this is Saucy Sue, I am a white sailing boat on fire in the middle of Cardifff Bay.”
get a quicker response than
“ Mayday, this is Saucy Sue, my position is 51degrees 21.07minutes N 3degrees10.23 minutes W. My MMSI is 12333229. I am on fire ect”?

I think it would. The coast guard may not even be listening nowadays.

 

[xyachtdave]

.......

On that point - I'd simply say a prompt card is the way to go.

Prompt cards are great in theory but how are you supposed to know the lat and long you'll be in when you need help in advance of the event?!

 

[creeks]

What did you think mattered. We might have missed something? Or we might say "in an ideal world" Or we might say "Are you bonkers - of course that doesn't matter"

Clearly we can't even agree if the proscribed format matters!

On that point - I'd simply say a prompt card is the way to go.

I had great hopes for you, ShinyShoe, but you've disappointed me. And I'm not talking about full stops.

 

[Simondjuk]

Prompt cards are great in theory but how are you supposed to know the lat and long you'll be in when you need help in advance of the event?!

You could use a dry wipe pen and update it regularly, but reading it off from the screen of the VHF you're using is more convenient.

 

[Triassic]

You could use a dry wipe pen and update it regularly, but reading it off from the screen of the VHF you're using is more convenient.

Indeed, assuming everybody has such information on their radio (mine gets it from the chart plotter so it relies on that being on) and if you have got it on your radio it's likely to be a DSC unit, in which case you're probably pushed the little red button first..... We've been here already haven't we?

Nobody yet has mentioned keeping their reading glasses next to the radio, and being able to find them in the dark in an emergency situation..... always useful if you have to read small numbers on a small scrolling screen......

 

[solent clown]

In reality being understood and relaying what information you have to hand is what matters. As an example of "bad practice" which worked extremely well, last week a rib broke down right in the busy shipping lane at the Test/Itchen junction. The skipper used channel 12 and simply stated he had engine failure,said his location was next to a big green buoy with Weston Shelf written on it! We turned about to offer assistance, but by the time we had done so VTS cracked into life over the radio with news that a tow was on the way. There was no pan pan, no callsigns etc. It was all very relaxed though. The guys were pros and local, so I guess there is some leeway, and the job got done

 

[duncan99210]

I've sent two urgency messages, all Panpans. In the first instance, we'd lost all power until we reattached the battery which had broken loose: the message was passed using the standard format, position given by a bearing on a lighthouse and a dr distance (gps still thinking about rejoining the party, in the days before dsc). That message drew the response from the CG telling us they were launching the lifeboat to bring us in.
Second was done after I met the boom travelling towards me.... I didn't make the call, that was done by a crew member following a prompt card, in the expectation of there being an ambulance to meet us when we got back to the marina. Instead, a helicopter winched me off for hospital treatment. I'm told that the call was made in text book fashion and the helo had no problems identifying us from the information given.
All that said, the format is there as a template. If you don't follow the template, then it really doesn't matter, as the CG will ask questions to fill in any gaps in the information given if it possible to maintain communications. My prompt card says to use the lat long position if available or to use a description if not. The example I use on the prompt card is "x hours into route from point x to point y', as this is likely to be easy to think of for a non boaty person.

 

[nortada]

I had great hopes for you, ShinyShoe, but you've disappointed me. And I'm not talking about full stops.

Oh dear ShinyShoes, and you were only trying to be helpful. :nonchalance:

Have you consigned yourself to the naughty step wearing a pointy hat.

Possibly creeks will PM you and explain how you have failed them.

For me, you have contributed well to a useful debate, which has largely ignored the guessing game. :encouragement:

 

[capnsensible]

There are starting to be more excuses on here for not knowing how to use the radio than kids have for not doing their homework...

Practice, my friends, practice. :encouragement::encouragement:

Sail safely and look after yourselves and your crew.

 

[chanelyacht]

Sounds like you should be able to make a useful contribution to this thread then?

One the few times I pop in here, I try!

To answer a couple of earlier questions -

Cancelling Maydays - only the captain / skipper of the casualty vessel can do this, as they declared the distress. The CG can request that permission, but cannot overrule it (unless the call is obviously hoax for example). When cancelled, CG will broadcast a "seelonce finee" which will be something like :

Mayday Relay x 3
All stations, this is Portland Coastguard.
Mayday.
Following received from Yacht Breeze at 1130 UTC Friday 13th July :
[Text of incident]
Swanage Lifeboat has vessel in tow and all persons accounted for.
Seelonce Finee.
This is Portland CG coordinating, DTG 131130 UTC.
Portland CG Out.

As for exact message content, just remember MIPNANOO or PIPNANOO -

MAYDAY x 3
Identity
Position
Nature of distress
Assistance Required
Number of Persons
Other relevant information
Out

Don't get hung up on spending time converting positions, etc - get the call out. You'll probably get a list of questions back from CG (mainly because half of them couldn't tell the pointy bit from the blunt bit anymore) but, hopefully, while they're asking that a colleague will be tasking assets.

 

[Thistle]

A couple of points, if I may.

1. Sending a distress message in the prescribed format ensures that all the relevant information is given the first time you transmit. This is important because in some distress situations it may also be the last time you are able to transmit. Having the message in the correct order may help the receiving station, particularly in situations where reception is poor (it's easier to decipher a difficult to hear message is you know what you are expecting to hear.) That said, making some contact is better than not making contact at all.

2. As I understand it the description of position can be either lat and long or direction and distance from a prominent land (or sea) mark. In coastal waters the latter may be more helpful; it's less likely to be useful offshore.

 

[Simondjuk]

Indeed, assuming everybody has such information on their radio (mine gets it from the chart plotter so it relies on that being on) and if you have got it on your radio it's likely to be a DSC unit, in which case you're probably pushed the little red button first..... We've been here already haven't we?

Nobody yet has mentioned keeping their reading glasses next to the radio, and being able to find them in the dark in an emergency situation..... always useful if you have to read small numbers on a small scrolling screen......

If you don't have or can't read the numbers for any reason, give a bearing and distance from a charted object instead. No one, not even the much maligned prompt cards, are saying not to, and the mayday procedure card that Captain Sensible linked to on the first page of this thread does suggest either this or a lat long. I'd assumed that the vast majority of people would know this as they'd have something similar next to their VHF so that the all the relevant info is to hand for anyone on board who may be called upon to transmit a mayday. It seems that more people than I'd imagined are prepared for they/their crew to muddle through when it matters for the want of an A5 piece of card than I'd imagined though.

Whilst a bearing and distance from a charted object are fine as a means of stating one's position, it's a method that's reliant on there being a positively identified charted object within appropriate range, the bearing and range of that object being ascertained by some means or other, and it may be fairly approximate. In most cases, the lat long will be available where the VHF set is located, it can be read straight off with no prior steps needing to be performed, will be extremely accurate, and works in the vast majority of the sea area which isn't conveniently punctuated by prominent nearby objects.

All that's by the by really though. The general idea is to have a standardised procedure which covers all circumstances, avoids ambiguity as far as possible, gives the best chance of sufficient information to launch an effective response being extracted from the initial message even if it is incomplete, garbled or not in the first language of the receiving station, and which is simple enough to be followed by a stressed or inexperienced individual reading from a prompt card. The current procedure and prompt cards on which it is set out have been developed to do all of these things.

Of course people are free to blurt out whatever minimal amount of information they assume is most relevant to their immediate circumstances in any random order they see fit in an attempt to shave a couple of seconds off the message length. They can clarify the uncertainty and discuss the detail later if it turns out they have the luxury of the time to do so.

I for one will start with the recognised and expected format that gives the best chance of sufficient information to initiate a response being extracted from it by any receiving station and even if the message is incomplete, broken or the last I'm able to send though. I can read it off a card if I'm too dazed/confused/frightened to remember it, as can any inexperienced crew member I send to do the same if my time is better used elsewhere, or of their own accord following the instruction I've given them to do so should they suddenly find that I'm no longer on board with them. I'd really rather they weren't winging it or messing about with a bearing and distance in those circumstances - just read from the card inserting the numbers from the VHF display where the card says so please.

 

[ShinyShoe]

To be a little silly to illustrate the point would “ Mayday, this is Saucy Sue, I am a white sailing boat on fire in the middle of Cardifff Bay.”
get a quicker response than
“ Mayday, this is Saucy Sue, my position is 51degrees 21.07minutes N 3degrees10.23 minutes W. My MMSI is 12333229. I am on fire ect”?

Is it too radical to suggest:
Mayday, this is Saucy Sue, I am a white sailing boat on fire in the middle of Cardifff Bay, my position is 51degrees 21.07minutes N 3degrees10.23 minutes W. My MMSI is 12333229. ?

So the guy who want to know "roughly where" knows. The guy who wants to plot your position accurately so he can find you after you sank can do so.

The coast guard may not even be listening nowadays.

That's not true. They may not have a headphone watch. But they are listening. I'd challenge you to find a case of a Mayday, transmitted in range of a CG mast that wasn't responded to.

Prompt cards are great in theory but how are you supposed to know the lat and long you'll be in when you need help in advance of the event?!

Well some people do seem to run aground on the same spot quite regularly...

Just in case you weren't joking the prompt would say "insert position" or something similar.

I had great hopes for you, ShinyShoe, but you've disappointed me. And I'm not talking about full stops.

The best analogy for using a forum is a Sailing Club Bar. What you've done here is walked into the bar. Asked a question, then turned round and tried to take your toys home when the guys in the bar started to converse. Now we are all left wondering what the question actually was, or what we missed...

Instead, a helicopter winched me off for hospital treatment.

One of those situations where specifying the 'assistance needed' might not have been 100% obvious.

The example I use on the prompt card is "x hours into route from point x to point y', as this is likely to be easy to think of for a non boaty person.

I can see the advantage. I'm comfortable with taking a bearing but less comfortable with 'guessing' distances. Lets assume I'm going from Falmouth to Plymouth. I'm 2 hours into my route. How useful is that as a location? Its better than "I'm some place off the bottom of England" Assuming I'm in a Yacht I'm travelling <10kts - possibly 5kts so maybe 10NM from Falmouth en-route to Plymouth. But I could be doing 3kts and just 6NM... And if I am a RIB - I could be anything from 30NM to ...arrived!

Possibly creeks will PM you and explain how you have failed them.

Apparently he likes the current thread drift and is hoping we'll all forget he asked a question in the first place.... ...I think!

There are starting to be more excuses on here for not knowing how to use the radio than kids have for not doing their homework...

Please sir - the dog ate my prompt card

As for exact message content, just remember MIPNANOO or PIPNANOO -

MAYDAY x 3
Identity
...
Other relevant information
Out

I'd really rather they weren't winging it or messing about with a bearing and distance in those circumstances - just read from the card inserting the numbers from the VHF display where the card says so please.

Yip. If I'm bad at distance SWMBO is terrible. And while I'm sure she can use a compass to work out my bearing to the needles, would she remember to reverse that to be the bearing from the needles. While in many cases it will be blatantly obvious that I can't be 4 mile East of the Needles and be sinking... I could be 4 mile South or North of it.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

There's one thing to remember that tends to get lost in these discussions. If we have a medical or MOB emergency on board that warrants an emergency call, then the person sending it will be sailing single-handed. That person will have his/her hands full with dealing with the emergency locally, as well as requesting help. Further, in medical situations (e.g. the casualty hitting their head), stabilizing the casualty might well have a higher priority than getting a call out - with First Aid, usually it is the first minutes of response that REALLY make a difference. Even getting someone into the recovery position improves their chances. A further issue is that lots of us sail with someone much less capable than ourselves, either through lack of experience or through lack of strength. If I went overboard -which shouldn't happen as we clip on when not in the cockpit, and often when in the cockpit - , my wife would probably struggle to control the boat well enough to get back to me, and would really struggle to get me aboard. She'd almost certainly be more concerned to do that than go through a long call to the CG. The best she'd do in either situation would be to follow the instruction to "press and hold the big red button", and then respond as requested. A particular difficulty in our situation is that English isn't my wife's first language, and although she is fluent in English, an emergency situation wouldn't be helped by the extra time she takes to process English.

Too often the RYA assumes we will be sailing with a full crew of big, healthy people, and that one person being out of action will not impact the boat's capacity to react. That is simply not the case for a large number of us.

 

[capnsensible]

Too often the RYA assumes we will be sailing with a full crew of big, healthy people, and that one person being out of action will not impact the boat's capacity to react. That is simply not the case for a large number of us.

Sorry but thats simply not the case. Most Instructors (and remember its not 'the RYA' but the school you are at) recognise that whilst they may have up to 5 students on a course, thats not the way most people sail.

Preparing students for dealing with emergency situations short handed certainly features largely in any course I, and many other Instructors I know, teach. :encouragement:

 

[penberth3]

Is it too radical to suggest:
Mayday, this is Saucy Sue, I am a white sailing boat on fire in the middle of Cardifff Bay, my position is 51degrees 21.07minutes N 3degrees10.23 minutes W. My MMSI is 12333229. ?

Another radical suggestion, omit the decimal minutes from the lat and long. Save time, less chance of being copied down wrong, position still near enough - probably in visual range.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Sorry but thats simply not the case. Most Instructors (and remember its not 'the RYA' but the school you are at) recognise that whilst they may have up to 5 students on a course, thats not the way most people sail.

Preparing students for dealing with emergency situations short handed certainly features largely in any course I, and many other Instructors I know, teach. :encouragement:

It may be the intention, but if most training takes place on a fully crewed boat (as it does), how can short-handed working be realistically trained for? It may well be that short-handed situations are talked through, but how are the methods put into practice, especially when even if you say, OK, these 3 are dead and that one's overboard, everyone knows that if it turns pear-shaped, the "dead and overboard" ones will spring into action? Further, methods that will work perfectly well on a fully crewed vessel may be impractical when short- or single-handed - and the practicality may well depend very much on the boat you're on?

If my wife and I do RYA courses - and this is not at all unlikely - then I think it would be more realistic for us to do it on our own boat with just ourselves as crew. That would be realistic for all situations we're likely to encounter. The snag is that you can't skip the parts of the course where you probably know more than the instructor from having done it professionally for most of your working life

I'm not knocking RYA courses, but I do have a problem that they are not more modular so you can do the bits you need to do and not the rest. Of course, you'd need to demonstrate competence in the bits that you don't do - but that could, in most cases, be done by examining professional qualifications or publications.

 

[Gallant Spirit]

with you 100% on this, learn the format as taught and when there is panic all around the training kicks in and the message get's out properly

 

[capnsensible]

Its quite straightforward from a trainers point of view, even on those rare occasions you have a full 5 on board. 3 or 4 seems to be the normal these days, certainly in my experience, chatting to others and watching school boats in action.

Thing is, practising things over and over gives everyone an opportunity to have a go at various scenarios. For example, spread over a training day of 9 ( breakfasted, cleaned up and ready to go) til around 6 or 7 gives plenty of practice time and over the days gives plenty of permutations available.

Each day I may conduct 6, 7 or more MOB excersises as an example......by midweek they dont take long. But its simple instructional technique to vary things around. Say, for example, I've got two couples on board. As the week goes on and everyone has had a few goes, you can sit one couple at a time at the back of the boat and work with the other. The observing couple watch, learn and then have a go.

Its simple instructional technique and what potential Instructors are assessed for and must reprove every 5 years.

There is always a lot of muddle about what actually goes on during a course for those that havent or dont need to attend. Hopefully threads like this help to explain it a bit.

Last thing, if you have a very experienced person on board with their partner, its easy to do a bit of role reversal to help both out! Its not always the case but its often the bloke of a partnership who has sailed more. Getting the ladies to dock the boat calmly and precisely whilst the chap deals with the lines is always great.

Should you take a course one day, hope it all goes well!! :encouragement:

 

[capnsensible]

with you 100% on this, learn the format as taught and when there is panic all around the training kicks in and the message get's out properly

Hola!!!! Those guys from Gran Tarajal remain supremely impressed!!! :encouragement: