Distress Messages

[TLouth7]

Creeks, when editing a post could you make a note at the bottom with what has changed? It becomes a little difficult to follow when people are commenting on wording that is no longer present. Not trying to have a go at you (this is not particularly a YBW forum convention - but then nor is routine editing).

Anyone else really keen to know what creeks is doing this research for?

The only time I have sent a distress message - Pan Pan which in hindsight should have been a Securite - I messed up the lat and long at first and said West when I meant East. This was some way offshore (crossing a TSS in fog patches) so bearing and distance were not applicable, though some description of the location might have been helpful. I received no response (no ships in sight).

Slightly off topic - if you hear a Mayday that the CG reply to and appear to have under control, would you still feel obliged to attend? Scenario is a yacht just off the coast in good weather with engine failure. CG task the local volunteers to provide a tow. Technically the Mayday situation has not been cancelled (is this a thing?). Do your obligations to render assistance still apply?

Edit: addressed creeks directly in first paragraph

 

[creeks]

Creeks, when editing a post could you make a note at the bottom with what has changed? It becomes a little difficult to follow when people are commenting on wording that is no longer present. Not trying to have a go at you (this is not particularly a YBW forum convention - but then nor is routine editing).

I apologise for that but did have good reason for not doing so. I gave it very careful consideration. To highlight the change could detract from the usefulness of the responses. My edit of a later post was done almost immediately and I added a substantial amount to the post and didn't delete anything.
I'm being ultra careful because I don't want to influence the debate in any way.

Anyone else really keen to know what creeks is doing this research for?

I'll just say that it's not for any frivolous reason.

 

[TLouth7]

I apologise for that but did have good reason for not doing so. I gave it very careful consideration.

No need to apologise, I'm glad you gave it some thought, even if I disagree with your conclusion.

I'll just say that it's not for any frivolous reason.

Well now I am even more intrigued.

I would say that you will at best reach a consensus among a vocal minority of (mostly) British (mostly) leisure boaters who happen to frequent a particular forum. I would be interested to see data on the types of mariners who most frequently send/receive/participate in distress calls, and how frequently language barriers are involved. Surely this would show that the opinions of leisure boaters in home waters are not terribly relevant to the prescribed format?

I would omit the callsign (can never remember it, consider the boat name to be a sufficient identifier), the MMSI (don't have one), the "Require immediate assistance" (irrelevant) and the vessel description (worry about that later). Might add a little more detail of the nature of distress, such as estimate of time until abandonment.

 

[capnsensible]

Yeah, what about that flippin International Telecoms Union, eh? Messing about organising global flippin conferences, wastin everyones time organising global standards and internationally recognised procedures what a waste of time.

All they got to do is get on here and get fifteen different answers to a simple question thats taken panels of experts with massive experience to get sorted but what about it??

Inboard wasters, I'll tell them how to put a message out, pah. Who needs some piece of paper flippin licence anyway thats just some devious way of big brother tellin me wot to do and I aint avin none of that........



https://www.itu.int/en/Pages/default.aspx

 

[dunedin]

Yeah, what about that flippin International Telecoms Union, eh? Messing about organising global flippin conferences, wastin everyones time organising global standards and internationally recognised procedures what a waste of time.

All they got to do is get on here and get fifteen different answers to a simple question thats taken panels of experts with massive experience to get sorted but what about it??

Inboard wasters, I'll tell them how to put a message out, pah. Who needs some piece of paper flippin licence anyway thats just some devious way of big brother tellin me wot to do and I aint avin none of that........



https://www.itu.int/en/Pages/default.aspx

Have you considered perhaps that the standard process produced by a large international committee for a fully crewed commercial vessel might not be particularly practical for a small boat with only one worried crew left on board?
All the suggestions of practical simplification for real world situationd are supported by sound logic. And I wpuld challenge you to show why a faster process (omitting multiple MMSI, Call Sign and perhaps numerical position before getting to the heart of the information) results in any problems, but materially shortens the time taken to alert coastguard and others in area.
If any ambiguity can clarify later.

Each 10 seconds away from helm speaking to radio is potentially a large distance drifted away from casualty in water, fire taking hold etc.
Small boat and liner have different needs in an emergency. Plus technology eg DSC and AIS changes things faster than international committees can react

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Duneden time yourself saying the prescribed message and your choice of short message, there is no “material” difference. It’s like arguing about approaching a MOB at 0.25 or 0.15 kts above steerage speed, irrelevant. The arguments for call sign, MMSI have been given. If you don’t accept them that’s okay, if your distress message has any ambiguity about it, responding parties will ask for clarity which you can give, assuming you can receive.

 

[capnsensible]

Have you considered perhaps that the standard process produced by a large international committee for a fully crewed commercial vessel might not be particularly practical for a small boat with only one worried crew left on board?

Of course I've considered it. Often daily. Ive spent my adult life operating vessels above and under the water. Teaching people how to react in an emergency situation is how I earn a living.

Thats the reason I can see half the stuff on here is fanciful. Take the correct initial action, make the boat and crew safe, put out the correct distress message. Then you are in control of the situation and can deal with the emotional bit as it comes.

The World Radio Conference involves people who invent stuff like DSC, AIS etc and sits every two to three years Specifically To Be Ahead. Include in that Coastguard Agencies that have to deal with distress messages from small craft. They are the ones who asked for the changes.

Its all there on google........if anyone cares to look. Or listen.........

 

[creeks]

All the suggestions of practical simplification for real world situationd are supported by sound logic. And I wpuld challenge you to show why a faster process (omitting multiple MMSI, Call Sign and perhaps numerical position before getting to the heart of the information) results in any problems, but materially shortens the time taken to alert coastguard and others in area.

The batteries dying on your handheld or whatever. Would "Mayday 176 degrees St Catherine's Point" at which point the battery fails, do the trick?

 

[capnsensible]

The batteries dying on your handheld or whatever. Would "Mayday 176 degrees St Catherine's Point" at which point the battery fails, do the trick?

Call them on your iphone.

 

[creeks]

put out the correct distress message.

Does my example message and all it's elements conform to recommended International practices?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

The batteries dying on your handheld or whatever. Would "Mayday 176 degrees St Catherine's Point" at which point the battery fails, do the trick?

I guess it might, or it might not if you have now sunk and are bobbing about in the water, how far were you from the point when the short message was made, the search area now has to be larger, maybe the DSC mmsi you activated first has been picked up but the registered vessel is in port. Night time is falling and the wind is picking up, heavy rain forecast. Probably wished you had a procedure and kept your handheld charged or made the mayday call earlier, or whatever, as you look to your 5 year old daughter, afloat in her life jacket and realise that her lips are a deathly shade of blue.

 

[NealB]

Duneden time yourself saying the proscribed message and your choice of short message, there is no “material” difference. It’s like arguing about approaching a MOB at 0.25 or 0.15 kits above steerage speed, irrelevant. The arguments for call sign, MMSI have been given. If you don’t accept them that’s okay, if your distress message has any ambiguity about it, responding parties will ask for clarity which you can give, assuming you can receive.

(Pssssst!!

Sorry to be a pedant, but you really should look at 'proscribed' and 'prescribed'.

The difference is rather important!)

 

[Deleted member 36384]

(Pssssst!!

Sorry to be a pedant, but you really should look at 'proscribed' and 'prescribed'.

The difference is rather important!)

Thank you, that’s appreciated.

 

[NealB]

Thank you, that’s appreciated.

And thank you, too.... phew!!

 

[NormanS]

Should it? There are two reasons on a boat rather than a plane that might not be the best approach. 1. you may be being heard but not receiving the other side of the conversation and so simply saying "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday this is Yacht Sinking Feeling" doesn't help and 2. a Plane's position is likely to be vague at best until it hits the ground so a position may never be that precise since its moving at 100MPH+

If you hit the big red button... ...you now have all sorts of crazy stuff happening depending where you are...


But you know you are near St Cats or not? You heard 3 POB. You are simply going to start by listening for a response. If you don't hear one you can then relay what you did hear or contact and as for a repeat position to relay it. Meanwhile when you get no response the Navy ship nearby has replayed its VHF recording, written it all down and passed it to the CG who for some reason didn't catch it.


In one respect I agree - why is the Callsign and MMSI needed at the start of the message. Not even really sure of the purpose of the callsign - it is never used! But I guess it differentiates two "Jenny Anne" fishing boats. But I can guarantee if you hit the big red button there will be lots of cross checking to be done by CG that the red button call and the voice call are the same. An MMSI in the message would help. Personally - it belongs at the end! Same for the LatLong for some reason the CG like you to voice it too. So is it better to have one speil that runs for say 30seconds or to have CG come back with
"MayDay Jenny Anne, this is UK Coastguard on 1-6, can you confirm your position with a Longitude an Latitude over"
"UK Coastguard this is Jenny Anne, Position is ... blah blah.. over"
"MayDay Jenny Anne, understood, position is blah blah. Can you confirm your vessels MMSI number over"
"MMSI is 12345678 over"
"MayDay Jenny Anne, all received MMSI is 12345678, can you confirm number of persons on board over"
"Three people over"
"MayDay Jenny Anne, can you confirm if you have lifejackets and if they are worn over"
"Yes all are wearing life jackets, over"

You see how the conversation progresses... ...UKCG has a script to follow. You are completing the gaps on their script, but it takes longer. They are cross checking the DSC Alert and the voice call are from the same boat. Now to complicate things some more, some other muppett will have managed to press a distress alert 1 mile away from you while trying to answer/cancel/relay your message. UKCG now needs to establish that the JennyLee is relaying the JennyAnne and not transmitting its own message.

I don;t think its the genuine gale wiping out lake solent that is the issue. It is the numpty who is "trying" to be helpful relaying your alert that UKCG were already processing that creates a second apparent incident. Heard this happen more than once. Its either associated with Lake Solent or density of boats...

I'd agree the sequence is wrong. The detail remains valid. But you can possibly argue what the right sequence is:
Has to start "MayDay" and saying it 3 times seems sensible to grab attention. Give Traona time to find the biscuit tin for the pencil.
There would be some logic to a position next. But also logic to who, and logic to what/why.
Position - you could send help if all other contact is lost. But what help. A chopper or a Lifeboat? Who - if can be linked to a CG66/SafeTrx - can contact a shore contact for more info of where to look if no position. If linked to MMSI can look for AIS.


Yes I think a checklist will be quicker than twoing and froing to ask each question on the script. Pausing to read the script will slow you down just enough to stop it being a shriek for help

On a double hander - with one now in the water - I'm hitting the red button. And as I try to gain control and able to do a voice call transmitting "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday. Man overboard. Position X"
I wont have messaged the distress type on the call, and I wont have given my details. I'll re-transmit shortly. But the information given is enough to enable a tasking even if all comms are lost... afterall they aren't looking for me ... they are looking for a head in the water.

So taking your list of "name, type of emergency, position and number of people aboard."
Should it actually be:

1. position
2. type of emergency
3. pob
4. name
5. callsign, MMSI
6. assistance requested

If your call is truncated (by you sinking) does that give the right info in the right priority? If you DSC'd it they should have a fairly good match of info... although I guess a collision could have two calls. So two boat names, to different POBs etc. So there is a risk if one got truncated and the other didn't that the call to the first doesn't join up that it is a second vessel because they never had a name etc. Is position a Long Lat, a bearing? Both if both which order and both together or different parts of message.
So perhaps a more optimal message if you have DSC and pressed red would by

"Mayday, Mayday, Mayday This is Yacht Jenny Anne. Mayday Jenny Anne position 1 mile south of St Catherine's Point. Sinking. 3 Persons On Board. I am a 30ft Sailing Yacht white in colour with tan sails. All crew are wearing life jackets and we are abandoning to life raft. Urgent assistance requested in position XX decimal YY West, AA decimal BB North. This is Mayday Jenny Anne Callsign ABCDE1 MMSI 12345678 over"

for a non DSC I'd invert the position info as a Long Lat is more precise in case I got truncated...

"Mayday, Mayday, Mayday This is Yacht Jenny Anne. Mayday Jenny Anne position XX decimal YY West, AA decimal BB North. Sinking. 3 Persons On Board. I am a 30ft Sailing Yacht white in colour with tan sails. All crew are wearing life jackets and we are abandoning to life raft. Urgent assistance requested in position 1 mile south of St Catherine's Point. This is Mayday Jenny Anne Callsign ABCDE1 over"


Yip - airlines follow emergency cards exactly for those sorts of reasons. Make sure things don't get missed.
My only difference is I aim to be hitting the red button before the crew has even realised they landed in the water... that will capture a position as a baseline.

Might I just say that I note that a couple of times when suggesting giving a numerical position, you refer to "Long and Lat" and on another occasion, to "West then North". Most people do it the other way round, but what would I know, I'm just a WAFI.

 

[mikemanor]

G

Resolve ambiguities here:

https://www.rya.org.uk/shop/pages/products.aspx?product=mayday-cockpit-card

Definitive answer. no messing. :encouragement:

Correct - and as I teach/assess on SRC courses/exams

 

[nortada]

In flying training it is part of the course for aircraft to make no-notice Practice Pan calls, either on 243 or the frequency in use.

The initial call is identical to the real thing: Practice Pan x 3 this is Callsign x 3 Practice Pan. Then wait for a response until a station responds. There then follows the whole procedure with the ground station taking control, providing the support requested, which will included vectors to the closest suitable airfield. The exercise will terminate when either party requests it.

Would there be any value in including a similar exercise on practical Day Skipper courses?

A bit like the practice use of flares (again practiced on the ground during flying training) but that is a different subject.

The point is, it is nice to try something in a calm environment before you have to do it in anger.

 

[creeks]

G

Correct - and as I teach/assess on SRC courses/exams

Perfect - would you mind if I asked you the same question I asked in an earlier post?

"Does my example message and all it's elements conform to recommended International practices?"

 

[ShinyShoe]

In flying training it is part of the course for aircraft to make no-notice Practice Pan calls, either on 243 or the frequency in use.

The initial call is identical to the real thing: Practice Pan x 3 this is Callsign x 3 Practice Pan. Then wait for a response until a station responds. There then follows the whole procedure with the ground station taking control, providing the support requested, which will included vectors to the closest suitable airfield. The exercise will terminate when either party requests it.

Would there be any value in including a similar exercise on practical Day Skipper courses?

A bit like the practice use of flares (again practiced on the ground during flying training) but that is a different subject.

The point is, it is nice to try something in a calm environment before you have to do it in anger.

Is that not what you do on your VHF course? Yes I know you aren't afloat etc. But I guess the difference is that if I PAN as a plane you may be re-routing me to a new airfield, giving me flight instructions, possibly instructions to help remedy by fault etc.

When I PAN on a boat... I'm probably not expecting the CG to give me much in terms of a plan. Either someone is coming to me, or I'm making my way to somewhere. I've never heard a PAN on a Boat where the CG sad - suggest you land your casualty at XX and the skipper then said - great can you give me the pilotage notes for the approach to XX.

I think the VHF course could improve. You could be chucked a chart and told you are 'here' you have 12 inches of water in the bilge that has appeared in 10 minutes. Crack on. Instead I was given a printed brief. It had my location, etc on it.

Pretty sure I also got a Mayday Relay in the exam.

Not done Day Skipper - but Advanced Powerboat requires passage plans - with contingency plans... you may be asked to invoke the contingency plan even though the main plan was fine and is going well...

 

[ShinyShoe]

Might I just say that I note that a couple of times when suggesting giving a numerical position, you refer to "Long and Lat" and on another occasion, to "West then North". Most people do it the other way round, but what would I know, I'm just a WAFI.

Cheers - I'll be reading it off the screen in front of me.

Goes back to my Ordnance Survey Days - Eastings then Northings.