nortada
Well-Known Member
Creeks, I am increasingly intrigued by your continuing request for confirmation that your example conforms to recommended practices. Why such concern? What has happened to generate this concern?
Distress Messages
- Thread starter creeks
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Creeks, I am increasingly intrigued by your continuing request for confirmation that your example conforms to recommended practices. Why such concern? What has happened to generate this concern?
westhinder
Well-Known Member
If we accept your example of batteries dying after 6 words, say, 3 seconds, how far would you be into the standard format message and how useful would that be?
creeks
Well-Known Member
I think I said in an earlier post, there is something to be seen and it hasn't yet been seen. If that signifies that it doesn't matter then it gives me my answer.
Sorry this is reply to Nortada
Sorry this is reply to Nortada
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ShinyShoe
Well-Known Member
So which bit are you feeling is not compliant:
The Green - Is not listed in the specification
The Amber - is implied in the specification
The specification does not state you end it "over"... ...but it doesn't state you don't.
I really don't get what you are asking. You'd find it much easier to just ask the question - not ponce around seeing if people know if the full stops are in the right place.
If your question is about adding Sailing Yacht - there was a discussion here: http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?489720-International-Marine-VHF-Voice-protocols-(ITU-) my question would be - why wouldn't you?
creeks
Well-Known Member
I'm really sorry. I seem to have dug a hole which I can't get out of. Might be best if the thread was terminated now if that's possible?
ShinyShoe
Well-Known Member
Why can't you get out of it? Why wouldn't you now say what you wanted people to "spot"
nortada
Well-Known Member
My question is straight forward but your response makes no sense!
It appears we are all participating in a bit of a pointless quiz.
International emergency procedures are clearly defined in a number of official publications so your answer will lie there.
nortada
Well-Known Member
As in a maritime situation, in a airborne situation, the plan/initiatives come from the originator, the responder just offers options and suggestions. In short, in both situations, the Skipper retains the final say.
However, I think you are missing my point. No amount of exam room questions can equate to on-the-job training so I am suggesting live training on practical sailing/power courses as happens in flying training.
In my flying/sailing career I made, Mayday, Pan and Pan-medico calls. I initiated emergency traffic on behalf of one who couldn’t and participated in a Mayday relay. In each situation I was very grateful that I had experienced practical training during my initial flying training (airborne and in the simulator). It read across well into my maritime situations.
Oh yes, for Creeks, after the initial call, which was standard R/T procedure, the subsequent messages varied widely as they related to totally differing circumstances.
The most important thing I learned was to keep the comms as short and simple as possible. Above all do not get involved in long debates as can easily happen.
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Simondjuk
Well-Known Member
So you'd omit the callsign because you can't be bothered to commit it to memory or make a note of it near the VHF despite the fact that in the absence of you having an MMSI, it's the only unique identifier of your vessel.
If it goes very quickly downhill after your omission and no means of positively identifying you or your vessel is established, the services are going to waste a lot of time and worry a lot of people in their efforts to track down and notify the emergency contact/next of kin of the yacht Passing Wind (or whatever) they received the inadequate distress message from amongst the dozens registered with the same name.
There's an internationally agreed, standardised format for many reasons, of which, the above is a blatantly obvious example.
Dutch01527
Well-Known Member
My boat is based in Cardiff and I suspect that 50% of boats out on the upper Bristol Channel do not carry charts, understand how the Lat/Long system works ( what are these funny degree things?) or have VHF training / certificate but have a vhf anyway.
They are small fishing boats operated by local guys whose hobby is fishing not boating. In many cases they are very experienced and competent but would not have the tools to help if they heard the official message format but would if they heard “immediate assistance required by 35 foot red sail boat 1 mile south of Barry” .
As a second point I still do not really understand the need by the coast guard to cross check the MMSI number sent by dsc with one in a verbal broadcast. The MMSI record on their database also has the boat name so if they receive a dsc for a mmsi number linked to a boat called Saucy Sue and a verbal mayday from Saucy Sue, both in the same position within a couple of minutes of each other, they can be pretty sure that it is the same incident.
I suspect that the regulations have been drafted to suit any incident worldwide including multiple incidents happening concurrently with multiple languages and MMSI numbers not registered possibly and are therefore a necessary compromise.
I would still take a pragmatic approach and simplify my first transmission and follow up with the full and proper details if time allowed or in response to questions from the coast guard.
They are small fishing boats operated by local guys whose hobby is fishing not boating. In many cases they are very experienced and competent but would not have the tools to help if they heard the official message format but would if they heard “immediate assistance required by 35 foot red sail boat 1 mile south of Barry” .
As a second point I still do not really understand the need by the coast guard to cross check the MMSI number sent by dsc with one in a verbal broadcast. The MMSI record on their database also has the boat name so if they receive a dsc for a mmsi number linked to a boat called Saucy Sue and a verbal mayday from Saucy Sue, both in the same position within a couple of minutes of each other, they can be pretty sure that it is the same incident.
I suspect that the regulations have been drafted to suit any incident worldwide including multiple incidents happening concurrently with multiple languages and MMSI numbers not registered possibly and are therefore a necessary compromise.
I would still take a pragmatic approach and simplify my first transmission and follow up with the full and proper details if time allowed or in response to questions from the coast guard.
nortada
Well-Known Member
.
Excellent Post.
Case in point, my little Snappy never leaves UK water so is not registered anywhere. Numerous small boats like me. Many using just a hand held, which they take from boat to boat so callsign doesn’t correlate to boat name. You can’t visually locate a callsign - you can a named boat
Courtesy of the previous owner, my Snappy has a VHS license and I have an operator license but never remember the ships callsign. I normally use my hand held. On the a collection of boats I use whilst in the UK - always use boat name.
The Snappy’s name is unique and I would always use that. Whilst on the subject of callsigns, in the heat of situation, you could hardly expect charter crews or instructors to remember the vessels callsign - or get it right (wrong callsign is worse than no callsign at all). The pro-word (Mayday or Pan) is the most important element as it alerts would be helpers and imposes radio silence on all non-emergency traffic. As Chan 16 may no longer be monitored, I would normally make the initial can on the frequency in use.
In previous posts I have suggested including practical emergency comms in formal sailing courses. I think this is most unlikely to happen but there is no reason why any/all skippers do not undertake passive training (passive = no live transmissions).
When instructing, in quiet periods, I often gave the student skipper a problem verbally (like the engine has just stopped) and asked what he/she would do, (including suitable emergency comms) - after the initial actions a interesting discuss followed - I learned a lot
️Any skipper could do this and it could prove a life saver in a subsequent live incident.
After all man over board drills are practised; why not emergency comms.
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creeks
Well-Known Member
I thought something mattered, but people who matter told me it didn't matter, or at least not as much as I thought it mattered. So I thought I'd put it before you to see if it mattered to you, but it seems it doesn't so perhaps it's best to let the matter rest. And now my grey matter hurts, and all this heat is melting the rest of my matter atte tte te t.
So I'll just go and find some shade and lie down.
nortada
Well-Known Member
Hope you don’t think me aggressive towards you. Rather, like other contributors, a bit confused and frustrated.
If it helps, you get out of your hole, please feel free to PM me with the facts.����
If it helps, you get out of your hole, please feel free to PM me with the facts.
����
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
.
Excellent Post.
Case in point, my little Snappy never leaves UK water so is not registered anywhere. Numerous small boats like me. Many using just a hand held, which they take from boat to boat so callsign doesn’t correlate to boat name. You can’t visually locate a callsign - you can a named boat
Courtesy of the previous owner, my Snappy has a VHS license and I have an operator license but never remember the ships callsign. I normally use my hand held.
The ship’s name is unique and I would always use that. Whilst on the subject of callsigns, in the heat of situation, you could hardly expect charter crews or instructors to remember the vessels callsign - or get it right (wrong callsign is worse than no callsign at all). The pro-word (Mayday or Pan) is the most important element as it alerts would be helpers and imposes radio silence on all non-emergency traffic. As Chan 16 may no longer be monitored, I would normally make the initial can on the frequency in use.
In previous posts I have suggested including practical emergency comms in formal sailing courses. I think this is most unlikely to happen but there is no reason why any/all skippers do not undertake passive training (passive = no live transmissions).
When instructing, in quite periods, I often gave the student skipper a problem verbally (like the engine has just stopped) and asked what he/she would do, (including suitable emergency comms) - after the initial actions a interesting discuss followed - I learned a lot
Any skipper could do this and it could prove a life saver in a subsequent live incident.
After all man over board drills are practised; why not emergency comms.
Mornin!
Regarding formal sailing courses and use of VHF.
The first course it appears in is the Day Skipper course. Also Watch Leader for those who ever do it. How to use in an emegency and make a distress call.
Like most Instructors, I include some of this as part of the safety brief. Main set, handheld and safety card posted next to the radio. It depends on the course mix, but for the first practical session, I wanna know someone can use the radio in case I am a muppet and fall in! Generally, at least one of the students will have a VHF operators licence but not always.
Important then to revisit this in usually first evening and have a dedicated how to use it session. I do this for everyone, no matter what level. Good refresher or learning depending on experience.
Then tie it all up with MOB excercises. Often do 3 or 4 a day, different skippers, under power, under sail, all sorts that I can use from the given conditions.
Great then as part of this is to make that vital Mayday call. And Do It Properly!!
So, running through the routine, the student in charge can send one of the others down at the appropriate time, to make that practice call. Without pressing the button of course! Although Ive heard that done and a somewhat embarased Instructor calling the Coastguard to apologise....
So thats how it works in the real training world.
I believe you guys have something like Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. Well thats very much the same kinda order for sailors!!
Hope this helps. :encouragement:
westhinder
Well-Known Member
That is exactly what I would do too.
From a point of view of effective communication this is self-evident.
If you have hit the red button without going into the menus to specify the emergency -you most probably won’t have the time for that- then your voice call needs to make clear what the emergency is and how many people are on board.
From there you will hopefully talk to a coast guard, or not if you have more urgent things to do on board, but at least they will know what is happening.
Triassic
Well-Known Member
There are numerous experienced and well qualified individuals on here insisting that the formal recognised and documented format is right and shouldn't be changed, and they are right, it is the ideal transmission to make. If you are on a super tanker, freighter, or pretty much any commercial vessel with professional crew on board then without doubt you would be able to rattle of the prescribed format in your sleep and the coastguard would be delighted with you and all other listeners deeply impressed.
But this is a yachting forum and the rest of us on here are real people who live in the real world and what we are saying to the OP is that we don't think the prescribed format is appropriate or necessary for us. I'm as mystified as everyone else as to what the OP wanted from this discussion and if he didn't get it that's a shame, but this discussion shouldn't be about what we think is right or wrong, it should be about what we think is effective communication in the particular circumstances that most of us hope we will never be in, and those circumstances are likely to be unique to the prevailing event.
Guidelines, rules, procedures are useful for giving us a base from which to start, and understanding why certain elements exist or are recommended is helpful when deciding if they are relevant to the circumstance, but saying they should always be done regardless shows a real lack of practical consideration or understanding.
But this is a yachting forum and the rest of us on here are real people who live in the real world and what we are saying to the OP is that we don't think the prescribed format is appropriate or necessary for us. I'm as mystified as everyone else as to what the OP wanted from this discussion and if he didn't get it that's a shame, but this discussion shouldn't be about what we think is right or wrong, it should be about what we think is effective communication in the particular circumstances that most of us hope we will never be in, and those circumstances are likely to be unique to the prevailing event.
Guidelines, rules, procedures are useful for giving us a base from which to start, and understanding why certain elements exist or are recommended is helpful when deciding if they are relevant to the circumstance, but saying they should always be done regardless shows a real lack of practical consideration or understanding.
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
I am a real person who lives in the real world with real experiences so that means that my real opinion is really valid and that the prescribed format should really be used unless there is a really good reason not to use it. Honestly, it’s really a storm in tea cup because in a real situation most of use will really be able to communicate the real urgency of the matter with the real facts. (-;
Biggles Wader
Well-Known Member
I think thats right. In the real world of amateur coastal sailing around home waters with few hands to help a distress call is likely to be a fairly disorganised event with little time for niceties. So what is needed is the ability to key up the radio on a channel that someone will be listening to and a brief account of what is happening and your position. Everything else is a bonus. A DSC alert with position plumbed in does that but a non DSC set requires you to give your position. Did I mention giving your position? I have heard a few emergency calls over many years, not just at sea, and the first thing the reciever wants is to know where you are and is that where the emergency is. Other stuff can follow as available.
I recall one event where a diver had failed to surface. The call went out on Dover port controls chanel because the dive boat had come from there and the radio was still on ch 74. The incident was about seven miles away and the position given was vague and it was getting dark. The clue was the name of the wreck they were diving on and someone with local knowledge knew where it was. A pilot launch got there in about ten minutes and passing ferry arrived a few minutes after that. I believe there was a happy ending but locating the position was crucial. Know your position and give it out is the lesson.
I recall one event where a diver had failed to surface. The call went out on Dover port controls chanel because the dive boat had come from there and the radio was still on ch 74. The incident was about seven miles away and the position given was vague and it was getting dark. The clue was the name of the wreck they were diving on and someone with local knowledge knew where it was. A pilot launch got there in about ten minutes and passing ferry arrived a few minutes after that. I believe there was a happy ending but locating the position was crucial. Know your position and give it out is the lesson.
ShinyShoe
Well-Known Member
What did you think mattered. We might have missed something? Or we might say "in an ideal world" Or we might say "Are you bonkers - of course that doesn't matter"
Clearly we can't even agree if the proscribed format matters!
On that point - I'd simply say a prompt card is the way to go.
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
:encouragement: Then it absolutely doesnt matter if you are on a Supertanker or a Snapdragon, those that you are asking to help you will get the best possible information they need to....help you.