Distress Messages

[westhinder]

The difference in time between saying the prescribed form of mayday and any shortened version is negligible. Learning the prescribed method or using a prompt card standardises a mayday response with critical information that reduces search time due to confusing caused by sold on radios, unregistered radios, same boat names, for example. I don’t see any problem or down side in transmitting a mayday using the proscribed format. In fact following a proforma, checklist can actually save time.

I am afraid that is formalism getting in the way of effective communication.
What you want in an emergency is getting the essential information across as quickly and effectively as possible. As I see it that is name, type of emergency, position and number of people aboard. Then wait for a response, and once contact has been established and if the situation allows it, any further info the rescuer may need, can be given. You surely do not want to listen to an MMSI number or even callsign before you find out what’s happening. If I ever have an MOB, I am pretty determined to make that and my position clear and not waste time on an MMSI number.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I am afraid that is formalism getting in the way of effective communication.
What you want in an emergency is getting the essential information across as quickly and effectively as possible. As I see it that is name, type of emergency, position and number of people aboard. Then wait for a response, and once contact has been established and if the situation allows it, any further info the rescuer may need, can be given. You surely do not want to listen to an MMSI number or even callsign before you find out what’s happening. If I ever have an MOB, I am pretty determined to make that and my position clear and not waste time on an MMSI number.

I don’t see it that way, “formalisim” is an accepted and proven method of reestablishing control in an emergency situation. An MOB would prioritise reocovery of the MOB before the mayday. Of course there are situations such as large crew numbers where both can be done simultaneously. Don’t get me wrong, I am not suggesting that rigidly following a proscribed method is allways the solution, but usually it is a good start before deviating.

 

[[70521]]

I suspect the preamble, is to get everybody's attention, grab a pen and switch on the grey matter. Yes even "HELP boat on fire off Start Point" will get the CG rolling, everything is on tape... But if you are closer to the French coast and say something like that there will be some confusion. If said in a standard way they can pick out the bones of the message (ring the UK if necessary and speak to the UK CG).

 

[creeks]

Just for info, I have edited my original post so that it now reads as follows:
"perceived errors in the format of the message or it's elements."

 

[ShinyShoe]

Why are you researching emergency calls and messages?

In my time I have sent a number emergency calls and messages, some airborne the others afloat.

The purpose of the emergency call is to alert all that you have a problem. It also invokes radio silence to all non-emergency traffic.

Hopefully, you will get a response and then send your emergency message.

The initial emergency call should be: Mayday (or Pan) x3 this is boat name (but could be callsign) x3 Mayday (or Pan). Short to the point, you then listen for a response.

Should it? There are two reasons on a boat rather than a plane that might not be the best approach. 1. you may be being heard but not receiving the other side of the conversation and so simply saying "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday this is Yacht Sinking Feeling" doesn't help and 2. a Plane's position is likely to be vague at best until it hits the ground so a position may never be that precise since its moving at 100MPH+

If you hit the big red button... ...you now have all sorts of crazy stuff happening depending where you are...

Good luck with all of that. I was sailing my boat at the time, I heard the initial Mayday and just about registered that I thought I heard St Catherine's light, but callsign and co-ordinates, forget it. The nearest paper and pen is somewhere in the cabin, I think they're under the biscuit tin.....

Oh well, said my bit.

But you know you are near St Cats or not? You heard 3 POB. You are simply going to start by listening for a response. If you don't hear one you can then relay what you did hear or contact and as for a repeat position to relay it. Meanwhile when you get no response the Navy ship nearby has replayed its VHF recording, written it all down and passed it to the CG who for some reason didn't catch it.

Absolutely totally agree. Wasting time repeating call signs and complex (and non memorable) MMSI numbers at the start before clarifying the emergency and assistance required is largely a waste of time - particularly if just hit the red button that has just transmitted the MMSI and position, and the coast guard have boat details registered on CG66 (or successor). Also my boat position is clearly shown on broadcast AIS.
...snip...
So I would use mayday X3 , boat name x 3, description of position (not yet lat long, as DSC already sent it), statement of emergency and assistance required. Exactly as Triassic above.
If after that I have time (ie not fighting a fire or going back to pick up MOB), I might repeat boat name, people on board and give lat long. But more likely when short handed to be busy trying to resolve the situation.

In one respect I agree - why is the Callsign and MMSI needed at the start of the message. Not even really sure of the purpose of the callsign - it is never used! But I guess it differentiates two "Jenny Anne" fishing boats. But I can guarantee if you hit the big red button there will be lots of cross checking to be done by CG that the red button call and the voice call are the same. An MMSI in the message would help. Personally - it belongs at the end! Same for the LatLong for some reason the CG like you to voice it too. So is it better to have one speil that runs for say 30seconds or to have CG come back with
"MayDay Jenny Anne, this is UK Coastguard on 1-6, can you confirm your position with a Longitude an Latitude over"
"UK Coastguard this is Jenny Anne, Position is ... blah blah.. over"
"MayDay Jenny Anne, understood, position is blah blah. Can you confirm your vessels MMSI number over"
"MMSI is 12345678 over"
"MayDay Jenny Anne, all received MMSI is 12345678, can you confirm number of persons on board over"
"Three people over"
"MayDay Jenny Anne, can you confirm if you have lifejackets and if they are worn over"
"Yes all are wearing life jackets, over"

You see how the conversation progresses... ...UKCG has a script to follow. You are completing the gaps on their script, but it takes longer. They are cross checking the DSC Alert and the voice call are from the same boat. Now to complicate things some more, some other muppett will have managed to press a distress alert 1 mile away from you while trying to answer/cancel/relay your message. UKCG now needs to establish that the JennyLee is relaying the JennyAnne and not transmitting its own message.

In the extremely unlikely event of multiple simultaneous distress signals from similar named boats in similar location (sudden sever gale in lake Solent?) then MMSI might be worth adding if you have enough crew to have a dedicated VHF officer.

I don;t think its the genuine gale wiping out lake solent that is the issue. It is the numpty who is "trying" to be helpful relaying your alert that UKCG were already processing that creates a second apparent incident. Heard this happen more than once. Its either associated with Lake Solent or density of boats...

Tin hat on for incoming. But the standard / RYA format does not stand up to scrutiny of getting imperative data over quickly, as opposed to bureaucratic detail slowly.

I'd agree the sequence is wrong. The detail remains valid. But you can possibly argue what the right sequence is:
Has to start "MayDay" and saying it 3 times seems sensible to grab attention. Give Traona time to find the biscuit tin for the pencil.
There would be some logic to a position next. But also logic to who, and logic to what/why.
Position - you could send help if all other contact is lost. But what help. A chopper or a Lifeboat? Who - if can be linked to a CG66/SafeTrx - can contact a shore contact for more info of where to look if no position. If linked to MMSI can look for AIS.

The difference in time between saying the prescribed form of mayday and any shortened version is negligible. Learning the prescribed method or using a prompt card standardises a mayday response with critical information that reduces search time due to confusing caused by sold on radios, unregistered radios, same boat names, for example. I don’t see any problem or down side in transmitting a mayday using the proscribed format. In fact following a proforma, checklist can actually save time.

Yes I think a checklist will be quicker than twoing and froing to ask each question on the script. Pausing to read the script will slow you down just enough to stop it being a shriek for help

I am afraid that is formalism getting in the way of effective communication.
What you want in an emergency is getting the essential information across as quickly and effectively as possible. As I see it that is name, type of emergency, position and number of people aboard. Then wait for a response, and once contact has been established and if the situation allows it, any further info the rescuer may need, can be given. You surely do not want to listen to an MMSI number or even callsign before you find out what’s happening. If I ever have an MOB, I am pretty determined to make that and my position clear and not waste time on an MMSI number.

On a double hander - with one now in the water - I'm hitting the red button. And as I try to gain control and able to do a voice call transmitting "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday. Man overboard. Position X"
I wont have messaged the distress type on the call, and I wont have given my details. I'll re-transmit shortly. But the information given is enough to enable a tasking even if all comms are lost... afterall they aren't looking for me ... they are looking for a head in the water.

So taking your list of "name, type of emergency, position and number of people aboard."
Should it actually be:

1. position
2. type of emergency
3. pob
4. name
5. callsign, MMSI
6. assistance requested

If your call is truncated (by you sinking) does that give the right info in the right priority? If you DSC'd it they should have a fairly good match of info... although I guess a collision could have two calls. So two boat names, to different POBs etc. So there is a risk if one got truncated and the other didn't that the call to the first doesn't join up that it is a second vessel because they never had a name etc. Is position a Long Lat, a bearing? Both if both which order and both together or different parts of message.
So perhaps a more optimal message if you have DSC and pressed red would by

"Mayday, Mayday, Mayday This is Yacht Jenny Anne. Mayday Jenny Anne position 1 mile south of St Catherine's Point. Sinking. 3 Persons On Board. I am a 30ft Sailing Yacht white in colour with tan sails. All crew are wearing life jackets and we are abandoning to life raft. Urgent assistance requested in position XX decimal YY West, AA decimal BB North. This is Mayday Jenny Anne Callsign ABCDE1 MMSI 12345678 over"

for a non DSC I'd invert the position info as a Long Lat is more precise in case I got truncated...

"Mayday, Mayday, Mayday This is Yacht Jenny Anne. Mayday Jenny Anne position XX decimal YY West, AA decimal BB North. Sinking. 3 Persons On Board. I am a 30ft Sailing Yacht white in colour with tan sails. All crew are wearing life jackets and we are abandoning to life raft. Urgent assistance requested in position 1 mile south of St Catherine's Point. This is Mayday Jenny Anne Callsign ABCDE1 over"

I don’t see it that way, “formalisim” is an accepted and proven method of reestablishing control in an emergency situation. An MOB would prioritise reocovery of the MOB before the mayday. Of course there are situations such as large crew numbers where both can be done simultaneously. Don’t get me wrong, I am not suggesting that rigidly following a proscribed method is always the solution, but usually it is a good start before deviating.

Yip - airlines follow emergency cards exactly for those sorts of reasons. Make sure things don't get missed.
My only difference is I aim to be hitting the red button before the crew has even realised they landed in the water... that will capture a position as a baseline.

 

[ShinyShoe]

"My position is one zero nautical miles from St. Catherine's Point on a bearing of one eight zero degrees true
"

Something about that position concerns me...

"ONE ZERO" - is that not "TEN" I think 1-0 is two easily taken as ONE... If you are concerned that TEN is mis understood I'd give it as "TEN. One Zero"

Likewise ONE EIGHT ZERO - feels clunky. Why not SOUTH!

I'm impressed that you are feeling the position has been measured with enough accuracy that 10NM from a location needs the bearing to be corrected for magnetic variation.

But mostly, the bit that can go wrong with bearings is is the bearing 180' from St Cat (i.e. you are due South) or is St Cats 180' South of you (I realise that is impossible in the example!)

So I'd rather it actually said

"My position is TEN (ONE - ZERO) nautical miles SOUTH of St Cats Point"

or if it wasn't due south:

"My position is TEN (ONE - ZERO) nautical miles ONE-SEVEN-SIX degrees from St Cats Point"
(Although if I was doing that with a compass might I say St Cats Pt is 356 from my position and forget to reverse it!!)

But if I am nit picking the message before I send it, to this extent, I'm not sinking!!

 

[nortada]

Should it? There are two reasons on a boat rather than a plane that might not be the best approach. 1. you may be being heard but not receiving the other side of the conversation and so simply saying "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday this is Yacht Sinking Feeling" doesn't help and 2. a Plane's position is likely to be vague at best until it hits the ground so a position may never be that precise since its moving at 100MPH+

If you hit the big red button... ...you now have all sorts of crazy stuff happening depending where you are...


But you know you are near St Cats or not? You heard 3 POB. You are simply going to start by listening for a response. If you don't hear one you can then relay what you did hear or contact and as for a repeat position to relay it. Meanwhile when you get no response the Navy ship nearby has replayed its VHF recording, written it all down and passed it to the CG who for some reason didn't catch it.


In one respect I agree - why is the Callsign and MMSI needed at the start of the message. Not even really sure of the purpose of the callsign - it is never used! But I guess it differentiates two "Jenny Anne" fishing boats. But I can guarantee if you hit the big red button there will be lots of cross checking to be done by CG that the red button call and the voice call are the same. An MMSI in the message would help. Personally - it belongs at the end! Same for the LatLong for some reason the CG like you to voice it too. So is it better to have one speil that runs for say 30seconds or to have CG come back with
"MayDay Jenny Anne, this is UK Coastguard on 1-6, can you confirm your position with a Longitude an Latitude over"
"UK Coastguard this is Jenny Anne, Position is ... blah blah.. over"
"MayDay Jenny Anne, understood, position is blah blah. Can you confirm your vessels MMSI number over"
"MMSI is 12345678 over"
"MayDay Jenny Anne, all received MMSI is 12345678, can you confirm number of persons on board over"
"Three people over"
"MayDay Jenny Anne, can you confirm if you have lifejackets and if they are worn over"
"Yes all are wearing life jackets, over"

You see how the conversation progresses... ...UKCG has a script to follow. You are completing the gaps on their script, but it takes longer. They are cross checking the DSC Alert and the voice call are from the same boat. Now to complicate things some more, some other muppett will have managed to press a distress alert 1 mile away from you while trying to answer/cancel/relay your message. UKCG now needs to establish that the JennyLee is relaying the JennyAnne and not transmitting its own message.

I don;t think its the genuine gale wiping out lake solent that is the issue. It is the numpty who is "trying" to be helpful relaying your alert that UKCG were already processing that creates a second apparent incident. Heard this happen more than once. Its either associated with Lake Solent or density of boats...

I'd agree the sequence is wrong. The detail remains valid. But you can possibly argue what the right sequence is:
Has to start "MayDay" and saying it 3 times seems sensible to grab attention. Give Traona time to find the biscuit tin for the pencil.
There would be some logic to a position next. But also logic to who, and logic to what/why.
Position - you could send help if all other contact is lost. But what help. A chopper or a Lifeboat? Who - if can be linked to a CG66/SafeTrx - can contact a shore contact for more info of where to look if no position. If linked to MMSI can look for AIS.


Yes I think a checklist will be quicker than twoing and froing to ask each question on the script. Pausing to read the script will slow you down just enough to stop it being a shriek for help

On a double hander - with one now in the water - I'm hitting the red button. And as I try to gain control and able to do a voice call transmitting "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday. Man overboard. Position X"
I wont have messaged the distress type on the call, and I wont have given my details. I'll re-transmit shortly. But the information given is enough to enable a tasking even if all comms are lost... afterall they aren't looking for me ... they are looking for a head in the water.

So taking your list of "name, type of emergency, position and number of people aboard."
Should it actually be:

1. position
2. type of emergency
3. pob
4. name
5. callsign, MMSI
6. assistance requested

If your call is truncated (by you sinking) does that give the right info in the right priority? If you DSC'd it they should have a fairly good match of info... although I guess a collision could have two calls. So two boat names, to different POBs etc. So there is a risk if one got truncated and the other didn't that the call to the first doesn't join up that it is a second vessel because they never had a name etc. Is position a Long Lat, a bearing? Both if both which order and both together or different parts of message.
So perhaps a more optimal message if you have DSC and pressed red would by

"Mayday, Mayday, Mayday This is Yacht Jenny Anne. Mayday Jenny Anne position 1 mile south of St Catherine's Point. Sinking. 3 Persons On Board. I am a 30ft Sailing Yacht white in colour with tan sails. All crew are wearing life jackets and we are abandoning to life raft. Urgent assistance requested in position XX decimal YY West, AA decimal BB North. This is Mayday Jenny Anne Callsign ABCDE1 MMSI 12345678 over"

for a non DSC I'd invert the position info as a Long Lat is more precise in case I got truncated...

"Mayday, Mayday, Mayday This is Yacht Jenny Anne. Mayday Jenny Anne position XX decimal YY West, AA decimal BB North. Sinking. 3 Persons On Board. I am a 30ft Sailing Yacht white in colour with tan sails. All crew are wearing life jackets and we are abandoning to life raft. Urgent assistance requested in position 1 mile south of St Catherine's Point. This is Mayday Jenny Anne Callsign ABCDE1 over"


Yip - airlines follow emergency cards exactly for those sorts of reasons. Make sure things don't get missed.
My only difference is I aim to be hitting the red button before the crew has even realised they landed in the water... that will capture a position as a baseline.

Unlike this tome, the emergency call should be short and sweet. You then listen for a response. If you get no response, you got a problem. Limited value in transmitting blind and you may be better placed with concentrating with the emergency. Then if time permits you could transmit a blind emergency message. Unlikely off St Cath’s but very likely on an ocean passage.

For the record, aircraft normally know exactly where they are and when in transit so does an air traffic control agency (especially when the aircraft activates emergency squawk 7777) so your position is transmitted for other agencies. Also an aircraft would include heading altitude and speed.

As this is a boaty forum my initial post concentrated on that environment.

Whatever, emergency communications cover many activities worldwide so need to be clear and concise. Especially if the receiving station’s first language is different from the originator’s.

Finally, great to have this debate but when crisis strikes you need to have a very clear understanding of your actions. Then is not the time to mull over options. Additionally, your plan of action may change depending on circumstance - mid-Solent is very different to mid-Atlantic.

So plan ahead but keep it simple.

 

[creeks]

Something about that position concerns me..........

"ONE ZERO" - is that not "TEN"

Likewise ONE EIGHT ZERO - feels clunky. Why not SOUTH

I have edited my original post again to reflect these comments. "one zero" is now "ten" and the bearing is now 176 degrees. My random choice of 180 degrees was a bit thoughtless.
I don't consider these as "format" errors. They were my errors in composition.

 

[xyachtdave]

Personally speaking after a career working in the emergency services I am of the view that the "approved" format exampled by the Op is far to complicated and long winded for an initial transmission. The most important thing to establish in an emergency is a means of communication from which help can be co-ordinated. Once contact has been established relevant detail can be exchanged, you don't need to include it beforehand.

A simple "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday, yacht name just south of St Catherine's point" should be all you need to initially transmit. Everyone will immediately know if they are in a position to help or not and either respond or listen in to see if they are needed, once contact has been established with someone the vessel in distress can pass all additional detail.

Good luck with all of that. I was sailing my boat at the time, I heard the initial Mayday and just about registered that I thought I heard St Catherine's light, but callsign and co-ordinates, forget it. The nearest paper and pen is somewhere in the cabin, I think they're under the biscuit tin.....

Oh well, said my bit.

Interesting as is coming from someone with experience and in line with my thoughts on the subject.

In a distress bad enough to warrant a Mayday call, the additional time taken to broadcast secondary info you're not sure anyone is listening to isn't worth it particularly if a less experienced crew is trying to work a lat and long out, as I'm assuming the skipper will be trying to deal with the Mayday problem.

Mayday Mayday Mayday
This is Yacht Armchair Expert, Armchair Expert, Armchair Expert
Mayday
My position is (eg) 2 miles East of North Foreland Light House
Have struck submerged object and am sinking
Require immediate assistance
2 persons on board
Over

If there aren't flames chasing me out the companionway or the boat isn't full of water and there really isn't anything else I could be doing to save the vessel then I'll stick around by the radio and you can have a lat and long, my mmsi number, call sign, special dietary requirements and my shoe size.

If as I expect will be the case in a Mayday situation more urgent things need me, I'll grab my handheld and set my epirb off and hope for the best while trying to sort myself out.

The exception to the above would be some sort of crew member injury where the boat isn't in danger and a long VHF call would be useful.

 

[Pye_End]

The 'I require immediate assistance' always feels a bit bizarre as it is implicit in the Mayday. The type of assistance may well be dictated by what vessel comes to your aid, and any rescuer will have their own priorities.

 

[Robin]

Keep it as short as possible, mustn't interfere with all the 'essential' radiocheck requests on 16.:disgust:

 

[duncan99210]

The format of the Mayday or Panpan message, as per the RYA page, is not laid down by the RYA but by the International Telecoms Union (ITU). The principal reasoning behind the format is to ensure that there is a simple, standardised format that a non English speaker can follow so even if the message is transmitted in a second language the local coastguard will stand a chance of being able to understand the data provided for each part of the message. Listening to Greek coastguards talking to a panicked Italian and getting them to repeat the message several times so that they can capture the data illustrates why a standardised format is so useful.
Yes, if you're in UK waters talking to a the UK CG then changing the message format won't matter too much and discussing it is all a bit philosophical. But if you're trying to pass distress information in what is the local CGs second language then sticking rigidly to the format will minimise the chances of misunderstandings.

 

[LadyInBed]

See line 3

Ah yes, but no PROWORD!

 

[nortada]

The format of the Mayday or Panpan message, as per the RYA page, is not laid down by the RYA but by the International Telecoms Union (ITU). The principal reasoning behind the format is to ensure that there is a simple, standardised format that a non English speaker can follow so even if the message is transmitted in a second language the local coastguard will stand a chance of being able to understand the data provided for each part of the message. Listening to Greek coastguards talking to a panicked Italian and getting them to repeat the message several times so that they can capture the data illustrates why a standardised format is so useful.
Yes, if you're in UK waters talking to a the UK CG then changing the message format won't matter too much and discussing it is all a bit philosophical. But if you're trying to pass distress information in what is the local CGs second language then sticking rigidly to the format will minimize the chances of misunderstandings.

Agree all above - I even managed to follow emergency traffic all in Portuguese and this was because the standard format was followed and I can count in Portuguese!

An interesting thread with a lot of good information but possibly ending it's run so how many contributors have participated in emergency traffic and what was their circumstances & outcome?

A bit of actual experience trumps a lot of theory!

 

[chanelyacht]

Agree all above - I even managed to follow emergency traffic all in Portuguese and this was because the standard format was followed and I can count in Portuguese!

An interesting thread with a lot of good information but possibly ending it's run so how many contributors have participated in emergency traffic and what was their circumstances & outcome?

A bit of actual experience trumps a lot of theory!

8 years SAR coordination for HMCG plus many more years CG team / lifeboat.

Quite a few, and all sorts of outcomes!

 

[Resolution]

Never had to make a mayday or pan pan yet -finger crossed it stays that way.
Last year we sat stormbound in a Turkish port listening to a Russian sailor making a mayday to the Turkish coastguards, both using English of a sort. I have to say that, given the conditions, he did really well and stayed admirably composed, Never did hear the outcome as they drifted out of our range.

 

[Triassic]

8 years SAR coordination for HMCG plus many more years CG team / lifeboat.

Quite a few, and all sorts of outcomes!

Sounds like you should be able to make a useful contribution to this thread then?

 

[Dutch01527]

I agree that the formalised script is too long winded and detailed as a first broadcast.

I would push the DSC button and then say something like “Mayday, Mayday, Mayday this is xxxx,xxxx,xxxx. We are 2 miles due west of Lundy Island. We have a fire on board and need urgent assistance. We are a 28 foot sailing boat with three adults onboard. I repeat Mayday, Mayday, Mayday. We are on fire 2 miles West of Lundy and require immediate assistance.”

That is enough for any vessel close by or the coast guard to respond. If I had time I would then rebroadcast after about three minutes using the proper format. I think that using lat and long as a first broadcast prevents boats near by helping because they will not have time to write it down and plot it. The MMSI and call sign are pretty irrelevant, how many 28 foot sailing boats are there 2 miles west of Lundy at that exact moment?

Maybe a bit different in something like the Round the Island race where “ we are a 28 foot sail boat with a blue hull and red sails, sail number GBR 675” might help and would certainly be more useful than the MMSI and Call Sign in my opinion.

Rules and regulations written by desk bound theorists maybe?

 

[creeks]

An interesting thread with a lot of good information but possibly ending it's run

It could become more interesting as the end is not yet in sight.
I am very grateful for all the responses so far. The debate surrounding the importance of using the correct format, and whether it matters or not, is particularly relevant, but as I said, there's still a way to go.
There is something to see, but the very fact that it has not yet been seen is in itself significant as it may indicate that it doesn't matter, and that's exactly what I'm trying to find out.

 

[lpdsn]

In many scenarios it is quite likely that it would be the least useful member of crew who would be sent below to make the initial call whilst the skipper tried to resolve the situation.

So when briefing crew, particularly least useful ones, I try to keep it simple. How to use the DSC button. How to make a voice transmission and how to read the lat and long off the GPS. And I attempt to get across a basic idea of a mayday call structure. MMSI & Call sign are available on a label next to the radio and if the coastguard think that's really important they can ask.