Dipping an eye?

[capnsensible]

Whenever you tie rope to metal, metal wins.

 

[Frank Holden]

It's basic procedure, or at least it once was, for a merchant ship's mooring ropes when sharing a Bollard with another ship's mooring ropes.

Not just when sharing with another ship but also sharing your own lines on the same bollard - an old day job seen here in Port Elizabeth. Probably not the best example as the port authority supplied big coir 'tails' to absorb the surge in that port but you get the idea.
Speaking of surge - about 10 years ago I left the boat in Antofagasta for maybe 4 months. Multiplait nylon spliced eyes ashore. The heating caused by the load coming on and off over the time essentially melted the nylon and hardened the eyes. I could have used them as knobkerries.

 

[lustyd]

So how is that going to be any different from having a spliced eye onto the cleat?

Even if you don't believe in chafe, you can't deny that a suitably tied bowline is less likely to come off of the cleat or bollard whether due to weather, boat movement, or some incompetent tying to the same place.

 

[NormanS]

Even if you don't believe in chafe, you can't deny that a suitably tied bowline is less likely to come off of the cleat or bollard whether due to weather, boat movement, or some incompetent tying to the same place.

You seem to be changing your ground. Now instead of chafe, you suggest that a bowline eye is more secure on a cleat than a spliced eye. Let me see if I can find an emoji showing rolling eyes.

 

[lustyd]

You seem to be changing your ground. Now instead of chafe, you suggest that a bowline eye is more secure on a cleat than a spliced eye. Let me see if I can find an emoji showing rolling eyes.

Not really, I'm just highlighting the many and varied reasons that recommended practice is recommended and widely taught.

 

[veshengro]

Not just when sharing with another ship but also sharing your own lines on the same bollard - an old day job seen here in Port Elizabeth. Probably not the best example as the port authority supplied big coir 'tails' to absorb the surge in that port but you get the idea.
Speaking of surge - about 10 years ago I left the boat in Antofagasta for maybe 4 months. Multiplait nylon spliced eyes ashore. The heating caused by the load coming on and off over the time essentially melted the nylon and hardened the eyes. I could have used them as knobkerries.View attachment 183056

Ha! I was in the Rhodesia Castle. That photo brings back memories and the old Ports.. Mombasa, Beira, Mozambique, Lourenco Marques, Zanzibar on the way to Durban, PE and others. Those Coir tails weighed a ton when they were wet, and when the strain came on them they shed water by the gallon!

 

[capnsensible]

Ships seem to manage perfectly well by just dropping spliced eyes over bollards, without suffering chafe. Don't muddy the waters by bringing in mooring buoy arrangements, which is a completely different situation.

Ships aren't in harbour for long, or often. Even cruise ships. When they do come alongside the docklines are inspected and damage replaced. Plus the lines are too heavy for knots.

Some boating people don't inspect their lines for months. You can see that by the number of unused craft kept in marinas, sometimes for years.

What ships do use are suitable multi plat stretchy lines. Rather than tightwad yachtsmen who use retired sheets and halyards that dont stretch.

I took a look just now at the docklines on the ship I'm on. Its clear they are well maintained.

 

[Frank Holden]

Ships aren't in harbour for long, or often. Even cruise ships. When they do come alongside the docklines are inspected and damage replaced. Plus the lines are too heavy for knots.

Some boating people don't inspect their lines for months. You can see that by the number of unused craft kept in marinas, sometimes for years.

What ships do use are suitable multi plat stretchy lines. Rather than tightwad yachtsmen who use retired sheets and halyards that dont stretch.

I took a look just now at the docklines on the ship I'm on. Its clear they are well maintained.

With one notable exception all the ships I have been on except in the earliest days - pre synthetic - have had polyprop non stretchy lines. The exception was a ship where some dill had ordered nylon - all good and well until a hard SWly change came through late one night and blew the ship far enough off the wharf to drop the gangway in the river. Nylon is also deadly when it parts.
Benefit of poly is that not only does it not stretch - it also floats.

 

[lustyd]

Polyprop does turn to dust within a couple of years outdoors though, so it's not ideal if you want to keep your boat! Popular with fender manufacturers for this reason.

 

[Frank Holden]

Polyprop does turn to dust within a couple of years outdoors though, so it's not ideal if you want to keep your boat! Popular with fender manufacturers for this reason.

I wouldn't use polyprop for mooring lines for my yacht. I'm currently using this Dockline - Mooring & Docklines - Donaghys Ltd AU because you want the stretch.
The polyprop lines that I use in the caletas of Patagonia are holding up well after 20 years but they are kept bagged on deck when we are out and about down south but stowed in the 'garden shed' at other times.
Big difference on a big ship where you don't want stretch. While they would stay on deck while around the coast they would be 'sent down' for passages. These days they are permanently on big drums - no more surging lines on warping drums.
'Springs' rather oddly were always FSWR aka 'wire rope' in the first 10/15 years I was at sea - not much stretch there.

 

[benjenbav]

Sometimes it occurs to me that maybe the reason some folk wrap endless figures of eight and goodness knows what else around dockside cleats is to stop anyone else being tempted to try to use ‘their’ cleat at all.

 

[capnsensible]

With one notable exception all the ships I have been on except in the earliest days - pre synthetic - have had polyprop non stretchy lines. The exception was a ship where some dill had ordered nylon - all good and well until a hard SWly change came through late one night and blew the ship far enough off the wharf to drop the gangway in the river. Nylon is also deadly when it parts.
Benefit of poly is that not only does it not stretch - it also floats.

We are anchored off today. I will hopefully get close enough to take and post a picture when we disembark back alongside tomorrow.

Complete with rat guards....

 

[mjcoon]

Complete with rat guards....

To stop them leaving? ;-)

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Sometimes it occurs to me that maybe the reason some folk wrap endless figures of eight and goodness knows what else around dockside cleats is to stop anyone else being tempted to try to use ‘their’ cleat at all.

I don't think so from what I see, it is just convenient, once attached, no need to redo lines. If I arrive and need to use "their cleat" and it is overloaded, if I have to I will adjust their lines to make room, but to be honest, you can nearly always find room, if even just to poke a bight through.

In defence of the the figure of eighters, I neat technique I learned from another boater is a take on the midship line. Have a single line on a midship cleat, secured mid point on line to onboard midship cleat. When arriving at pontoon (bow in for this explanation), step ashore with both ends, aft running line is secured as a spring at end of pontoon, then tail up to stern cleat, forward running line is secured to cleat at front of pontoon then up to bow cleat; simple, fast and neat looking. Doesn't lend itself to setting slips when leaving, but that can be managed with other lines.

 

[benjenbav]

I don't think so from what I see, it is just convenient, once attached, no need to redo lines. If I arrive and need to use "their cleat" and it is overloaded, if I have to I will adjust their lines to make room, but to be honest, you can nearly always find room, if even just to poke a bight through.

In defence of the the figure of eighters, I neat technique I learned from another boater is a take on the midship line. Have a single line on a midship cleat, secured mid point on line to onboard midship cleat. When arriving at pontoon (bow in for this explanation), step ashore with both ends, aft running line is secured as a spring at end of pontoon, then tail up to stern cleat, forward running line is secured to cleat at front of pontoon then up to bow cleat; simple, fast and neat looking. Doesn't lend itself to setting slips when leaving, but that can be managed with other lines.

All good except… personally I don’t like stepping off onto a bouncy finger until the boat’s stopped moving. I’d always much rather get a line round a dock cleat first.

 

[Frank Holden]

To stop them leaving? ;-)

My son asked what those funny things were when he was about 4 years old . I told him they were ratguards. He said I was wrong as he had a book with rat guards in it.. they were pirate rats with clubs.

 

[Frank Holden]

We are anchored off today. I will hopefully get close enough to take and post a picture when we disembark back alongside tomorrow.

Complete with rat guards....

Just to clarify one point. All ropes stretch even FSWR, it's just a matter of how much. In the lengths used on yachts there is no effective stretch in old halyards etc which is why they can put heavy snatch loads on deck fittings. Big ship ropes made of much the same material will have enough stretch due to size and length to be fit for purpose.

 

[capnsensible]

Just to clarify one point. All ropes stretch even FSWR, it's just a matter of how much. In the lengths used on yachts there is no effective stretch in old halyards etc which is why they can put heavy snatch loads on deck fittings. Big ship ropes made of much the same material will have enough stretch due to size and length to be fit for purpose.

Steel hawsers used for towing have the same properties I understand.

Have seen them used as dock lines on submarines too. The synthetic ones used now are far more popular with the casing party.

 

[capnsensible]

 

[Sandy]

Sometimes it occurs to me that maybe the reason some folk wrap endless figures of eight and goodness knows what else around dockside cleats is to stop anyone else being tempted to try to use ‘their’ cleat at all.

Don't forget the umpteen locking turns, usually put in the wrong way so that they are impossible to undo.