Coppercoat – The Complete Process

[Elessar]

.....previous owner of my boat claims it was first treated 3 years ago.
Boat bottom was clean when launched off the low loader in June on delivery from North Wales.70 hours later It is now a weedy mess especially around the waterline.Nor sure about whats not visible further down.
22 knots on launch 18 knots a week or two ago.
Will report back in next few weeks .Nothing would please me more to discover my days of getting smothered with A/F are over for few years,but visible evidence suggests other wise.

Ok is it green or brown? I'd give it a light abrade and give it a go if I was you.
June to nearly October 4 knots lost isn't awful. Props will do that.

 

[oldgit]

Absolutely anything to avoid anti fouling !

Ok is it green or brown? I'd give it a light abrade and give it a go if I was you.
June to nearly October 4 knots lost isn't awful. Props will do that.

Definately a brown colour when relaunched assumed it was normal A/F, did not discover it had allegedly been Coppercoated by previous owner until later.
Will abrade the surface and find out if Coppercoat, perfectly happy to clean and relaunch and give it try for season.
Anything to avoid the hateful job of antifouling and please please Coppercoat be as good as your proponents claim and the lid remains firmly on my 5L tin of pretty blue Antifoul.

 

[Hurricane]

Re: Absolutely anything to avoid anti fouling !

Just to add to this thread - some pics.

This is after 5 seasons in the Med

A yachtie friend recoated his 10 year old Coppercoat earlier this season.
He meticulously sanded the old back to expose the brown copper before applying 4 new coats of Coppercoat
Really hard work.
He has just got back to Sant Carles from 4 months away.
He is really really really pleased with his new Coppercoat bottom.

 

[kashurst]

Re: Absolutely anything to avoid anti fouling !

re Oldgit: if your boat has been coppercoated 3 years ago and its still brown something is wrong. Could be incomplete mixing on application and the copper particles are not exposed at the surface - in which case sand it and try again.
Or its had something else painted over it. Either way CC isn't much good until its turned that lovely green colour as per Hurricanes pics.

 

[Elessar]

Re: Absolutely anything to avoid anti fouling !

Definately a brown colour when relaunched assumed it was normal A/F, did not discover it had allegedly been Coppercoated by previous owner until later.
Will abrade the surface and find out if Coppercoat, perfectly happy to clean and relaunch and give it try for season.
Anything to avoid the hateful job of antifouling and please please Coppercoat be as good as your proponents claim and the lid remains firmly on my 5L tin of pretty blue Antifoul.

Copper is not an antifoul. Cuprous oxide is.
You will find it is shiny. They didn't matt it off before first launch or it was very warm when launched and it slimed over before it corroded.
Matt it off with a scotchbrite pad. Then it should go green.
It will still take 3 months to get to full strength from brown so hang in there.
No wonder you thought it was rubbish.

 

[oldgit]

Re: Absolutely anything to avoid anti fouling !

Was definately a matt brown when launched.

Did however have natter to a chap last night.who had his Fairline Turbo 36 Coppercoated.
Boat was overcoated with standard anti fouling this season.

Being a curious old git,as we have around 100 boats on our club moorings, am going to to put a little article on our club magazine requesting comments from those who have tried Coppercoat in the fertile waters of the East coast.

 

[MapisM]

Re: Absolutely anything to avoid anti fouling !

Copper is not an antifoul. Cuprous oxide is.
You will find it is shiny. They didn't matt it off before first launch or it was very warm when launched and it slimed over before it corroded.
Matt it off with a scotchbrite pad. Then it should go green.
It will still take 3 months to get to full strength from brown so hang in there.
No wonder you thought it was rubbish.

Sorry if this has already been addressed before and I missed it:
If I would go for CC before next summer, is there any procedure I'll have to follow in the following years before re-launching the boat, if I will store her ashore for say 3 to 4 months during winter?
I'm asking because that's what I used to do, though I might well consider leaving the boat in her berth and lift her only for powerwash and anodes, if CC works better without drying out...

 

[Elessar]

Re: Absolutely anything to avoid anti fouling !

Sorry if this has already been addressed before and I missed it:
If I would go for CC before next summer, is there any procedure I'll have to follow in the following years before re-launching the boat, if I will store her ashore for say 3 to 4 months during winter?
I'm asking because that's what I used to do, though I might well consider leaving the boat in her berth and lift her only for powerwash and anodes, if CC works better without drying out...

no process. You can stay out for years and just relaunch, it doesn't matter. Or you can leave it in. That doesn't matter either.

 

[MapisM]

Epoxy coatings (either before CC or normal A/F)

I am returning on this topic because I heard different views on how effective and durable the different epoxy products can be in protecting GRP hulls.
As I understood, the main difference is between solvent based vs. water based epoxy coatings, though Coppercoat seems to restrict the choice to water based epoxy.

Regardless, assuming to start from a hull stripped to bare gelcoat, is there any specific epoxy coating that the forum wisdom considers the best and more longlasting, assuming either to stick to traditional A/F or go for CC instead?

Btw, there are a few spots which could use use a bit of filler, to smooth the surface before epoxy coating.
Does the choice of epoxy coating drive also the filler choice, or what?

Thanks in advance!

 

[vas]

Re: Epoxy coatings (either before CC or normal A/F)

not an expert by any stretch, but from my experience the issue of compatibility and sticking one coat to another (hull to epoxy, or most likely epoxy to a/f of choice) you could generally break it down to two things:
chemical bonding and mechanical bonding.

I'd guess epoxies would stick to a gellcoated hull especially if it's slightly coarse from all the cleaning.
Now, epoxy cures to v.hard and typically shinny/smooth surface. That will cause issues of keying and you may end up having to go through the whole hull with a 120 or even 80grit before applying a/f if the primer doesn't work.

I can also prove that solvent based epoxies are not that good for copper (did a custom copper based epoxy solution and tried it on MiToS with little success in most areas)
OTOH, i'd prefer a solvent based epoxy for hull protection, so it's rather complicated...

cheers

V.

 

[Portofino]

Re: Epoxy coatings (either before CC or normal A/F)

If I was in your shoes at this moment in time I would hold fire on any potentially expensive ( relatively ) and unnecessary spend on the new to you boat ,until after at least 1or 2 seasons use and you put some sea miles on her .
Reason. Wait to see if there are any more pressing things that need €€€ throwing @ .

I don,t buy into CC in the Med .You don,t see much about .Normal AF seems to work on mobo,s fine .
Boat needs an annual lift for anodes and stern gear lift anyhow .
Regarding performance / L per hour , EGT , ability to reach WOT. ------ CC does not address the number 1 factor of clean stern gear .
I fact after 13 years or so trying various products. I have given up -- but don,t let me stop anybody else trying to NOT need a scape every now and again .Especially after a few weeks stood in the summer !

My mini diving kit was the best investment I ever made in terms of what it saves me and engines .

I like to do a "visual " my self at the annual , check everything over inc the bow thruster , flap hydraulics , hull skin fittings ( re - excercise as this is the time for renew ) etc .
Set the blue tape for the AF tide mark .
You could ask a yard -- many do ,past experience for me

Could not be bothered to change bow thruster anode
Set lazily the line - too high !
Used wrong bolts on flap anodes ,
Sealed up small water in grills ,
Missed pad touch points at lift in

By DIY ing it you get to know your boat ,do it property , choose the AF. Recoat areas if you wish ,
Smooth other areas prior to coating etc .
Last year on the Itama while in Cabestra I bought in Oct AF @ € 100 / tin ,they had pallets of it in a sale 1/2 price .
I normally pay near double .
So along with consumable s two tins less than € 400 + a bit of graft in an average year .
Normally book 1 week in the yard .AF part takes 2 days approx .

How do you know it's not been epoxied all ready and don,t under estimate the damage air abrasion ( with what ever ? ) will cause ?

BTW I used some AF that had some PTFE in it a couple of times on the SS , sure it did indeed feel slippy to the hand and unscientifically I think I 'gained a couple of knots @ a set rpm .
I may try it on the Itama , from memory it was 1/2 as much again € wise ,but worth it fuel saving wise I guess .

 

[Elessar]

Re: Epoxy coatings (either before CC or normal A/F)

not an expert by any stretch, but from my experience the issue of compatibility and sticking one coat to another (hull to epoxy, or most likely epoxy to a/f of choice) you could generally break it down to two things:
chemical bonding and mechanical bonding.

I'd guess epoxies would stick to a gellcoated hull especially if it's slightly coarse from all the cleaning.
Now, epoxy cures to v.hard and typically shinny/smooth surface. That will cause issues of keying and you may end up having to go through the whole hull with a 120 or even 80grit before applying a/f if the primer doesn't work.

I can also prove that solvent based epoxies are not that good for copper (did a custom copper based epoxy solution and tried it on MiToS with little success in most areas)
OTOH, i'd prefer a solvent based epoxy for hull protection, so it's rather complicated...

cheers

V.

It is complicated and so many errors in what you said I don’t know where to start.

Solvent free epoxies cure shiny and hard. You need to overcoat within 24 hours to acheive a chemical bond.
Solvented epoxies cure matt and have an infinite overeating window without sanding. But you mustn’t put too many coats on too close together or you will get micro bubbles as the solvent tries to escape. Wait a week or more if putting coppercoat over solvented for that reason.
You can put one coat of solvented over a couple of coats of solvent free to gain the infinite over coating window.

For hull protection it matters not if it is solvent free or solvented. What matters is the thickness. Wet film thickness of solvented is typically 110 microns with a dry film thickness of about 45. Solvent free epoxy are more like 150 microns and the wet film and dry film thicknesses are obviously the same. In a nutshell 2 coats solvent free gives the same protection approx as 6 coats of solvented.

DIY copper solutions prove only that the epoxy is waterproof. The copper is in it and inert. Coppercoat has a special epoxy (using water as the solvent) that slowly eroded exposing fresh copper.

 

[MapisM]

Re: Epoxy coatings (either before CC or normal A/F)

Interesting. For some reason, I assumed that CC could only be used on top of solvent free epoxies.

Anyway, based on your indications, am I right in jumping to the conclusion that solvent free epoxies, since as effective and durable as the solvented stuff, are better regardless - if nothing else are better because 2 coats take much less time than 6?

Any suggestion also on specific brand/type of epoxy would be also welcome.
I was recommended International Gelshield, but according to their website there are different flavours of it...
Besides, I'm quite happy to use some better stuff that might be available, if any.
I'd rather have a proper job done once and then forget it for the years to come, if at all possible!

 

[acheter]

After first summer there was weeds and barnacles in the bottom, much more than on any time with
antifouling painted boats on these waters.

 

[Elessar]

Re: Epoxy coatings (either before CC or normal A/F)

Interesting. For some reason, I assumed that CC could only be used on top of solvent free epoxies.

Anyway, based on your indications, am I right in jumping to the conclusion that solvent free epoxies, since as effective and durable as the solvented stuff, are better regardless - if nothing else are better because 2 coats take much less time than 6?

Any suggestion also on specific brand/type of epoxy would be also welcome.
I was recommended International Gelshield, but according to their website there are different flavours of it...
Besides, I'm quite happy to use some better stuff that might be available, if any.
I'd rather have a proper job done once and then forget it for the years to come, if at all possible!

You’re right solvented/non solvented makes no difference to durability once the solvent is out.

They say don’t use coppercoat over solvented as too many people put the coppercoat on too soon and got micro bubbles.

The advantage of solvented and its thin film is its easier for an amateur to get even coverage. You go grey green grey green etc so it’s so easy. Just lots of coats. They are also potential application problems with solvent free (amine blush) at lower temps.

With international gelshield 200 is the solvented and gelshield plus is the solvent free. They’re bound to be good. I used the coppercoat supplied epoxies that are made by 3M. I’m afraid I don’t know much about other brands.

 

[MapisM]

Re: Epoxy coatings (either before CC or normal A/F)

I'm afraid that coating, varnish etc. ain't my strong point - so much so, that this has been one of my reasons for downgrading to plastic from the previous wooden boat, which demanded a LOT of that stuff.

So, I'll use a pro also for this epoxy thing (and possibly CC afterwards), which makes easiness of application not so important, hopefully. Otoh, the amount of manpower required will indeed be a cost factor.
So, I suppose Gelshield Plus (only two coats of it, as I understand) is bound to be the best choice, or am I missing something else?

Besides, when you said that you used the CC supplied 3M epoxies, I guess you mean directly on bare hull, in lieu of any other epoxy coating, correct?
In other words, am I right in summarizing the "traditional a/f vs. CC" alternative as follows...
1) Traditional a/f: two coats of Gelshield Plus on bare hull, and two coats of a/f on top
2) CC: Two coats of CC epoxy alone on bare hull, and four coats of the same stuff mixed with copper powder on top

 

[Elessar]

Re: Epoxy coatings (either before CC or normal A/F)

I'm afraid that coating, varnish etc. ain't my strong point - so much so, that this has been one of my reasons for downgrading to plastic from the previous wooden boat, which demanded a LOT of that stuff.

So, I'll use a pro also for this epoxy thing (and possibly CC afterwards), which makes easiness of application not so important, hopefully. Otoh, the amount of manpower required will indeed be a cost factor.
So, I suppose Gelshield Plus (only two coats of it, as I understand) is bound to be the best choice, or am I missing something else?

Besides, when you said that you used the CC supplied 3M epoxies, I guess you mean directly on bare hull, in lieu of any other epoxy coating, correct?
In other words, am I right in summarizing the "traditional a/f vs. CC" alternative as follows...
1) Traditional a/f: two coats of Gelshield Plus on bare hull, and two coats of a/f on top
2) CC: Two coats of CC epoxy alone on bare hull, and four coats of the same stuff mixed with copper powder on top

not quite. The coppercoat epoxy with the copper in isn't the 3M epoxy which you use underneath and which is solvent free, the epoxy with the copper mixed in is a special epoxy that has water as its solvent. Which is why it is water soluble until cured.

 

[MapisM]

Re: Epoxy coatings (either before CC or normal A/F)

Aha, understood. So, would my previous summary be fine, if amended as follows...?

1) same as above
2) CC: Two coats of 3M solvent free epoxy on bare hull, and four coats of CC epoxy mixed with copper powder on top

 

[Elessar]

Re: Epoxy coatings (either before CC or normal A/F)

Aha, understood. So, would my previous summary be fine, if amended as follows...?

1) same as above
2) CC: Two coats of 3M solvent free epoxy on bare hull, and four coats of CC epoxy mixed with copper powder on top

yep

and I'd expand,

Day 1; 1 coat 3M solvent free epoxy
Day 2; 1 coat 3M solvent free epoxy
Day 3; 4 coats coppercoat.

 

[MapisM]

Re: Epoxy coatings (either before CC or normal A/F)

Thanks a bunch, Elessar! :encouragement:

Just a couple of last (hopefully... ) questions...

1) I googled a bit in the meantime for 3M epoxy & Coppercoat to find the exact 3M resin type, and I found several references to GP120, but apparently that's mostly meant for steel hulls.
Is there anything else which is better suited for GRP?

2) What would you suggest as a filler for minor repairs, before the 2 epoxy coats?

TIA!