Coppercoat – The Complete Process

[John100156]

Happily come and paint it with you John, but you need to get the hull blasted locally. It is just too expensive to tow the rig down.

Thanks Mark - certainly thinking of CC, but I quite like M77 too, I may be in touch once lifted though!

Tell me, have you ever dealt with a CC'd boat after 10 years, what's the action plan then? How easy is it to reapply? A lot less agro having CC I suppose, not having to AF each year or two but has anyone looked at whole life-cycle cost?

 

[Elessar]

Thanks Mark - certainly thinking of CC, but I quite like M77 too, I may be in touch once lifted though!

Tell me, have you ever dealt with a CC'd boat after 10 years, what's the action plan then? How easy is it to reapply? A lot less agro having CC I suppose, not having to AF each year or two but has anyone looked at whole life-cycle cost?

Easier than the first time, just abrade and overcoat. Not normally after 10 years though, mostly longer. Should be 13 or more in the med. Though I imagine SC water temp particularly high because of the lagoon?

Serious about helping - pay my flight and beer bill and a long weekend in SC most welcome, you and I would do her in a day if shes prepped.

 

[Hurricane]

Happily come and paint it with you John, but you need to get the hull blasted locally. It is just too expensive to tow the rig down.

The only problem that I see in doing it at Sant Carles is that the immediate local contractors only do dry sand blasting and IMHO that is a mistake.
I have seen a few examples where sand blasting has been too aggressive.
As you know, we brought Dennis up from Torrevieja mainly for his wet slurry removal expertise and he did a fantastic job for us.
As you agreed, it just wasn't practical to bring you out from the UK but your advice at the time was really helpful.

 

[Bandit]

Exact speed trial Comparisons are very hard to do. Especially with one boat before and after and exactly the same loadings temperature, etc too many variables.

There is no reason under the sun why a new boat with a clean hull no AF would be slower than one that had copper coat on it.

Perhaps cc when first immersed could be fractionally faster than new AF?

My observation is that after 6 to 12 months in seawater is that cc shows markedly more fouling than a premium anti fouling and therefore more drag is less speed and more diesel per mile.

I have also seen some strange galvanic corrosion problems with some boats with cc?

 

[Elessar]

Exact speed trial Comparisons are very hard to do. Especially with one boat before and after and exactly the same loadings temperature, etc too many variables.

There is no reason under the sun why a new boat with a clean hull no AF would be slower than one that had copper coat on it.

Perhaps cc when first immersed could be fractionally faster than new AF?

My observation is that after 6 to 12 months in seawater is that cc shows markedly more fouling than a premium anti fouling and therefore more drag is less speed and more diesel per mile.

I have also seen some strange galvanic corrosion problems with some boats with cc?

Do you have coppercoat yourself?

 

[P4Paul]

I have also seen some strange galvanic corrosion problems with some boats with cc?

I am currently considering copper coat, can you expand on your comment; what strange galvanic problems have you witnessed.

The last thing I want after paying a princely sum of money is my outdrives fizzing away due to copper coat.

My observation is that after 6 to 12 months in seawater is that cc shows markedly more fouling than a premium anti fouling and therefore more drag is less speed and more diesel per mile.

Does anyone have any experience of copper coats performance over the last couple of years on the Hamble and Solent, have you found it a worse performer than a premium antifoul and has your fuel bill escalated since the application of copper coat?

 

[Elessar]

I am currently considering copper coat, can you expand on your comment; what strange galvanic problems have you witnessed.

The last thing I want after paying a princely sum of money is my outdrives fizzing away due to copper coat.




Does anyone have any experience of copper coats performance over the last couple of years on the Hamble and Solent, have you found it a worse performer than a premium antifoul and has your fuel bill escalated since the application of copper coat?

what it is about forums? Loads of anecdotal evidence from owners and some measured evidence from sea schools and journalists that copperrcoat makes your boat go faster (flip side saves fuel), and one bloke, who has yet to confirm he has coppercoat, doesn't like it and the question is about rocketing fuel bills.

Coppercoat saves fuel.

Coppercoat is not recommended on the outdrives themselves, but has less effect on them if used as a hull antifoul than copper based (ie most of them) standard antifouls. This is because coppecoat is waterproof wheras normal antifoul is 100% porous. The water makes the circuit. The grains in coppercoat do not touch each other - put a meter across it and it will read infinity.

The forum resident expert metallurgist has coppercoat.

 

[P4Paul]

what it is about forums? Loads of anecdotal evidence from owners and some measured evidence from sea schools and journalists that copperrcoat makes your boat go faster (flip side saves fuel), and one bloke, who has yet to confirm he has coppercoat, doesn't like it and the question is about rocketing fuel bills.

Coppercoat saves fuel.

Coppercoat is not recommended on the outdrives themselves, but has less effect on them if used as a hull antifoul than copper based (ie most of them) standard antifouls. This is because coppecoat is waterproof wheras normal antifoul is 100% porous. The water makes the circuit. The grains in coppercoat do not touch each other - put a meter across it and it will read infinity.

The forum resident expert metallurgist has coppercoat.

To be fair Mark, I have asked Bandit to expand on his galvanic statement and asked other users if they concur with his performance and fuel usage statement. Both surprised me hence why I asked for confirmation and additional information to add substance to Bandit's comments.

I don't think that is a 'forum thing' as you can overhear either side of any boat related topic in all the pubs up and down the Hamble on a Friday evening!

 

[Bandit]

Elessar

No,
I have used International Optima and now int WA.

 

[Robg71]

Did the primers and CC not sick to specific metals, or all of them...
Thinking out loud.... steel hull.... CC..... Epoxy two pack primer...

 

[Bandit]

I know there are strips that should be free of anti foul or cooper coat around anti fouls etc.

I have seen a very nice Baltic produces racing yacht sail drive leg replaced after a year and a skin fitting admittedly brass failed after 18months , not fully explained.

Copper coat should not cause a continuous connection across the coatings, but strange things appear.

it appears to set up an electrolytic corrosive environment more so than other coatings.

 

[Elessar]

I know there are strips that should be free of anti foul or cooper coat around anti fouls etc.

I have seen a very nice Baltic produces racing yacht sail drive leg replaced after a year and a skin fitting admittedly brass failed after 18months , not fully explained.

Copper coat should not cause a continuous connection across the coatings, but strange things appear.

it appears to set up an electrolytic corrosive environment more so than other coatings.

Evidence please. I think that is nonsense.

 

[PirateMark]

Ok guys please dont shoot me down with my own opionon of the copper coat view, i am lucky that i travel around the coast on my day job and frequently visit marinas for dinner breaks, it seems to me that i see boats having cc applied or have been applied, but! the majourity of boats still seem to use normal antifoul, if cc was as good as it says and as people say, why are all boat owners not raceing out and getting our hulls coppercoated asap.
I have spoke to a recent owner who has just has his boat done at swanick marina main side, according to him it should never be a DIY job and should be left to the pro"s only he has seen examble of DIy jobs and the end result has been poor mainly peeling of the cc

Im am still on the border line of what to do, my hull has been stripped and epoxyied ready for my decision in march/april this final hurdle is doing my head in as i dont not want to find i have made a stupid mistake and results turn out poor.

 

[P4Paul]

Im am still on the border line of what to do, my hull has been stripped and epoxyied ready for my decision in march/april this final hurdle is doing my head in as i dont not want to find i have made a stupid mistake and results turn out poor.

I am in a similar position as you, I can see the advantage of no more anti fouling for the next 10 odd years and happy to carry on with a mid season scrub, I guess I was just hoping to have heard from Hamble bertholders that CC's antifouling ability is comparable to cruiser Uno which I have used happily for the last few years.

 

[Hurricane]

but! the majourity of boats still seem to use normal antifoul, if cc was as good as it says and as people say, why are all boat owners not raceing out and getting our hulls coppercoated asap.

I think the reason is that Coppercoat IS more expensive and generally not offered when boats are built (certainly the case for Princess).
So it is less likely that people will strip their A/F to apply CC.
As I said above, in my case, I was stripping the boat anyway - I suspect that I would still be using A/F if I hadn't needed to strip the bad A/F off.

Having said that - yes - it is a bit surprising that boat owners not raceing out and getting our hulls coppercoated asap
I'm sure it saves money
BTW if you are in the Hamble it will work perfectly
In the Med we get far more barnacles than you will get in the UK.
So, those of you who are not yet decided - "go for it" - you won't regret it.

 

[Bandit]

Ref Elessar post above

I work with boats as a job, we lift a large number of boats, most regular customers, so I see anti foul six, nine or 12 months later.

I also see a small number of customers with cc coated hulls on the same frequency.

Copper coat accounts for no more than about 4% of the boats I see.

So why 20 to 1 ratio?

Where I am barnacles are not a problem mainly slime and weed.

We do mainly mechanical work and skin fittings, electrolytic corrosion is a significant part of our work.

A lot of boat owners views on anti fouling and copper coat like all things when a decision is made, money is spent etc. the comparisons is less than scientifically objective.

My views and statements above stand.

 

[EwanClark]

For the avoidance of doubt and/or confusion I am pleased to confirm that our Coppercoat epoxy anti-foul is a non-conductive coating that neither causes or promotes electrolysis or cathodic decay. Consequently we regularly supply it for use on steel and aluminium structures (and boats) as well as GRP surfaces. For example, the electricity generating tide turbines from Rolls Royce are protected with Coppercoat, and these consist of a central steel hub/gearbox with GRP blades.

Approximately 50,000 boats world-wide now use Coppercoat. But the main reason why not every boat has it is indeed cost - many boat owners simply can't face the thought/cost of stripping off all their old anti-foul in readiness for the treatment. But for people with a new boat, or for those that have cleaned off all the paint, it is becoming increasingly commonplace to fit Coppercoat.

A wide variety of boat building companies offer it from new, including the likes of Oyster, Solaris, Cornish Crabbers, Southerly, Malo, Swallow, Honnor, Isara, Tayana, Horizon, Rib-Eye, Dragonfly, Cheetah, African-Cats, Broad-Blue, Hylas and Saturn. While we do supply Sunseeker, we've not secured a deal to supply Princess yet - that's something for us to work on!

 

[rafiki_]

The vast majority of us do not buy new boats, and our new to us boats pretty much all come with a degree of antifoul. There is no doubt in my mind that Coppercoat is the best solution for long term anti fouling, but there is a 4 year or so payback period, and for many of us, we don't know how long we are going to keep our boat, so that decision is not so easy. My choice is slap another coat of a/f on this year, £100 ish, as I will do it myself, £500 ish if I paid someone else to do it. For a precessional Coppercoat job, I would guesstimate £2000 ish for my 40 footer. This is the real reason fewer of us choose the CC route. Now, if I had bought my Sanzi new, she would be £400k ish, so another £2k would not be an issue.

 

[John100156]

Ref Elessar post above
.....Copper coat accounts for no more than about 4% of the boats I see. So why 20 to 1 ratio?.....

.....money is spent etc. the comparisons is less than scientifically objective......

I quite understand your views as above but in my case; the reason I did not go for CC last time (when Hurricane had his boat coated) was mainly the cost and time taken to properly prepare the hull. I think Mike was quite right, if there's no real incentive to strip and prepare, then any good AF (I use Micron 77) can perform equally well as CC but I certainly doubt it will last as long, so it’s cheaper and less problematic in the long run.

As some will know, in the early days of SCM (2008) we experienced some very heavy fouling indeed. See images of my old boat below, then a two year old from new Targa-34 – they show just three months growth from a clean pressure washed hull when she left MDL Torquay, to first lift in SCM) likely due to a combination of warmer water and disturbance of nutrients and water flows when the new marina was built resulting in increased life in the water – fouling seems to have diminished to a manageable level now:

For the following three years (2008-2011), we tried all sorts of AF and observed numerous boats as they were lifted (we had a continuous 20 week stay out there in 2009). As a non-CC user, I was very impressed indeed with CC’s performance on several boats, equal to or better than any good quality AF, the most important observation was one boat had CC applied some 10 years ago and it was still performing well.

Having had M77 on for two full seasons, I must say I’m also very impressed with its performance and will decide when lifting in a month or two whether to bite the bullet and go for CC or stick with M77. (Mark thanks for you kind offer, if you want to pop-out to SCM for a weekend on my boat you’re welcome to.) I reckon the break point on cost will come in around year 6 (3 x two year applications of M77), after which I would probably have been better to go with CC, we shall see….

So, as an impartial observer: IMHO CC definitely seems to work very well indeed in our location!

 

[EwanClark]

Rafiki - your estimate of about £2000 for a professional Coppercoat application to a 40ft yacht is pretty accurate. Such a boat would need about £700 of Coppercoat, and it would cost a similar amount to prepare the boat and similar again to apply it. Naturally a DIY application could be completed for just the cost of the CC and some sundries such as a paint scrapper, sanding discs, a paint tray and a few rollers.

Most of our clients calculate the break even point at year 3, but it depends on what anti-foul they used previously, and whether the treatment is DIY or boat-yard applied. Also, many CC users no longer have their boat lifted and blocked-off each year, as they don't need to repaint. instead they lift in the slings for maybe 30 minutes, just long enough for a clean and an inspection (and anode change). A lift and hold may be £200 or so, as opposed to £400 for a block-off and later re-launch. This annual saving can be factored in to the overall equation. Of course, some CC treated boats are not lifted at all - for example, owners of catamarans and bilge-keeled yachts simply beach their boats at low tide for cleaning/maintenance, giving an annual lift cost of zero. Consequently there is no one-figure-that-fits-all when it comes to calculating the break even point with Coppercoat.

(One commercial boat operator in Poole calculated a saving of £4000 in fuel in one summer season, on an application of just £400 of Coppercoat - so his break even point was within a month! But clearly this is an extreme example and not representative of the average boat owner.)