Commercial Use of Red Diesel - an absurdity

[Gludy]

Ok
Does anyone know what you have to do now as a charter or fishing boat to claim back the fuel duty?

Its really a big brother world if Customs have to be informed of each sale of over 100 litres. Everything is being made very complicated and costly as directives are issued and laws passed without any real regard for the cost of implementation.

 

[steverow]

Yes but this is the point.
Look at the paragraph under the acceptable fuel types..ie EN590 ULSD or City diesel. "Lubricity Additives may be required"
We'll have to be bunging in two stroke oil perhaps??.

This is exactly what my Perkins Powerpart dealer was telling me last year that ULSD road derv will cause lubricating problems on the seals of the metering unit and possibly lift pump.

See this for the History of the 6 354

http://www.perkins.com/perkins/cda/artic...014952,00.html?
Steve.

 

[Marsupial]

Paul and Apollo,


Several things here, HM Customs and Excise, bless them, started to gather information on WHO was buying red diesel in marinas over 1 year ago, by now they know who you are, what boat you own, where you live, what car you drive, how many litres you use, how much you pay, when you paid it where you went and what you did. yes it's crap and the British people pay tax to pay for "them" to do it to us - and try to tell us we're free!

Where I berth they diligently fill in forms for HMC every time I refuel. There is no privacy left in the UK, we are all subjected to covert scrutiny by "officialdom" many times per day such is their paranoid feeling of insecurity.

The term heating oil is misleading, and "red diesel" is confusing, see below a quote from a government web site that explains what "they" think red diesel it is - which of course is what matters here.

"
Heating Oils
Our contracts ensure that up to 300 million litres of heating oil is delivered each year to more than 5,000 addresses in the UK. The product range includes Gas Oil (also known as Red Diesel, Tractor Diesel, Red Derv and 35 Second Oil), Kerosene (also known as Burning Oil, RBO, 28 Second Oil and Kero), Medium Fuel Oil and Heavy Fuel Oil.
"

http://www.ogcbuyingsolutions.gov.uk/energy/services/services_procurement_product.asp

MOST houses that heat with oil use 28 sec oil, some use 35 sec - which is red diesel. Certainly the stuff I used to buy was red diesel, I paid 5% VAT, the same stuff bought from a marina would attract 17.5% VAT, take the dye out and put in a car - or a truck - you know the rest . . .

The point is that the mechanism to differentiate USE already exists, minds infinitely inferior to ours are at this moment plotting to determine under what conditions can the duty be waived – see the stuff I wrote previously for what might be going through those minds. (in between pictures of the teletubbies and another game of solitaire)

Sadly after 50ish years on this planet I think I understand how government works, the outcome of this process will I think be cumbersome and punitive fanatically enforced with draconian zeal – rule Britannia yeah yeah

Cheers


David

 

[adrianm]

I think it very likely that the government will want to abolish all forms of low tax gasoil ASAP. They continually bleat on about losing billions in revenue from crooks using heating oil and red diesel in garages.

I expect they will bring in a massively complicated system that will allow commercial users to claw back the duty and ensure that another 10,000 people join the Government payroll.

At this rate 75% of the country will "work" for the government (including pensioners, invalids, unemployed as well as civil servants) and the other 25% will be paying tax at 80% to fund them.

 

[ccscott49]

In the rest of Europe they manage, they have deisel for pleasure boats, white. and red for fishing commercial boats, two pumps, why wouldnt that work here?

 

[Gludy]

In many places it would be totally uneconomic for the marina to install both pumps, storage tanks etc so that they could charge the highest white diesel price in Europe for a very reduced market place.

If red goes and prices reach road prices plus a marina surcharge you are looking at a very reduced consumption on any basis.

I would also add that HM government is leaving this matter very late - if they are to apply for an extension, there is only a little over a year left - if they introduce a new class of diesel or a white diesel only policy for leisure craft they have left it very, very late for marinas to decide what to do, install new pumps etc.

I would guess that they are not going to apply for an extension and I would guess there is going to be one almighty mess and a lot of confusion as to who qualifies for red and who does not.

 

[fireball]

The most sensible way to remove the "Red" diesel would be (as previously mentioned) allow commercial vessels to claim back the duty on fuel. The few charter boats that are around would make so little difference to the government that even if they claim back "private" use it wouldn't matter too much. (although you'd probably get fined !!)
Continuing the "RED" bit of the diesel would still differentiate it from the road fuel so could still be cheaper (could, not would) and WOULD mean that fuel stations make no change.

So - if that is the most sensible way forward (assuming the loss of the Red diesel status) then that isn't the way it will be implemented ....

 

[Gludy]

If it were to be implemented then that would be the best way to do it, which as you say, means that it would not be done that way ..... the department for messing things up in every ministry would ensure that.

"The few charter boats that are around would make so little difference to the government that even if they claim back "private" use it wouldn't matter too much. (although you'd probably get fined !!)"

Why would they not be commercial? They are commercial - they can claim back the little duty there is now and would no doubt continue to do so. Otherwise the government would have to change many rules and laws trying to decide what is and is not commercial .... that will not happen. Hence the my original point on the absurdity of all this.

Secondly, as regards the amounts involved being small - the total amount of leisure diesel sold is tiny and the government will almost certainly raise less total tax than they did before ...... this issue is not about money.

 

[fireball]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would they not be commercial?

[/ QUOTE ]
When the owner of a charter vessel takes the boat out for his annual cruise - that isn't commercial use (unless he pays himself the charter fee?) ... is it?

[ QUOTE ]
this issue is not about money.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, it is about bowing to presure from the EU ... again ... we'll probably loose "red" as a tiny part of a barganing deal for something totally different ... a deal that the other EU countries won't stick too ... but it is the principle of the thing, us British are used to be Shafted by the EU...

 

[Gludy]

"When the owner of a charter vessel takes the boat out for his annual cruise - that isn't commercial use (unless he pays himself the charter fee?) ... is it?"

No agreed and stated in my opening post - but when he is chartering and taking others around for money then it is commercial isnt it? Hence if you take others for money you get cheap fuel - if you take yourself you do not....... that is absurd.

"No, it is about bowing to presure from the EU ... again ... we'll probably loose "red" as a tiny part of a barganing deal for something totally different ... a deal that the other EU countries won't stick too ... but it is the principle of the thing, us British are used to be Shafted by the EU... "

Spot on ...... I do not think the governement is even aware of this issue at any political level - they have to apply to have the dereg extended - they have not applied, no action means end of dereg and hence full road price for personal leisure users. .... we are seeing no action.

 

[Scaramoosh]

I don't think I agree with your point that should derrogation go we HAVE to had road diesel pricing. We are already paying about twice the minimum EU price that we are supposed to be derrogated out of.

You are mixing up the fact of derrogation which says we have an opt out from the minimum price set for the whole of the EU to prevent one goverment subsidising its transport costs against the rest of the EU and what Mr Gordon Brown actually charges in terms of Duty and VAT on Red Diesle today.

It is entirely possible (granted not certain) that we don't have derrogation but the price doesn't change. It could even go down if HM Government decided that that what it wanted to do (unlikely I know but possible).

 

[Gludy]

I agree that we would not HAVE to have road pricing .... I was exploring the way this government is acting by leaving its decision on the question of to apply for postponement or not so late ..... if everything was left without action it would mean road prices plus marina surcharge.

Of course the could decide to act and do anything they like - just as you say ---- its just that doing nothing would leave us with a road price plus.

 

[gandy]

Is current marine "red" the same as agricultural "red"?

Tony S

 

[capsco]

[ QUOTE ]
Is current marine "red" the same as agricultural "red"?

Tony S

[/ QUOTE ]

YES

 

[robind]

When using petrol for commercial use the system exists to claim back a certain amount of the tax?
Rob

 

[Gludy]

yes fishing boats, charter boats etc can claim back tax as well as VAT.

 

[PCUK]

Or run on heating oil?

 

[tcm]

In your example, you'd do as you should do - rent the boat from the owning company and pay the going rate. Yep, you get the money eventually but it's quite normal for shareholders of other things to pay in the normal way (hotels shops etc) even though they own shares, even all the shares.

Sepretly, £7k a day is a bit hopeful.

 

[duncanmack]

In France only fishing boats (and farmers) can use low-tax diesel. Leisure users use the same stuff and pay the same price as road users.

They come round and check what fuel is being "used" ie is in the tank and god help you if you've got red in a leisure craft.
Same applies here in road vehicles. The fuel checking units from HM Revenue and Customs take a sample and if you have red in your road vehicle you get a very large fine and can get the vehicle impounded (and sold at auction).

For vehicle read vessel and that's the way it'll work.

 

[Gludy]

But it will not work that way for commercial charter craft - it cannot work that way for almost every diesel boat for many years because they will all have traces of red in them for many years .... what happens in France when you arrive with red in form a UK port?