colregs question

[davidlhill]

Exactly. So the OP was curious as to know what were the rules to follow, without getting all stressed by it.

As both a racer and cruiser I've been on both sides. Seen a racing boat approaching, and volunterily getting out of their way as I'm merely pottering and they could be going for a win.

Conversely I've been racing and have come across a cruiser 'in my way'. If the helm is looking at me, I've been known to shout in a friendly way 'I'm in a race, do you mind if.....' and added what I want to happen, whether it's me getting too close in a normal situation or asking them to alter course. As I do it in a friendly tone 9 times out of 10 the cruiser complies. I don't think they do it because I'm lucky!

 

[LittleSister]

If the colregs were followed by racers a windward start in a force 6 could never happen, as there is a constant risk of collision. Approaching a windward mark? Ditto. A dinghy on port dipping the transom of a starboard tack boat shouldn't happen according to the colgregsd as well before I commence the dip I should have borne or tacked away! As such racers know (or should do!) the RRS, and in the main they coincide with the colregs (I believe) and as such that's all they usually bother to learn.

Does that imply they are generally unaware that their interactions with non-racing craft are governed by the Colregs, and not the Racing Rules?

 

[davidlhill]

Obviously I can only speak of my experience, but yes I'd say so definitely in the case of dinghy racers. In 20 years of racing various classes on the sea where I encountered non-racing yachts I've never heard a colreg conversation post race. Or to be more accurate, they may have been aware of the existence of the colregs but certainly wouldn't know them.

In my yacht racing experience when I skippered I took the view non-racing yachts were basically hazards so never went near them, and if I had to always assumed they didn't know the rules.

 

[capnsensible]

In my yacht racing experience when I skippered I took the view non-racing yachts were basically hazards so never went near them, and if I had to always assumed they didn't know the rules.

Me too. Sailing up close to cruising yachts and dipping round behind them at speed is stupid really. No doubt this will cause the odd squeal but I saw it happen countless times. Look for people who call other boat users numpties or muppets and suchlike and you will see the type of person who does that. They are probably not very good at driving home either....

 

[dom]

Obviously I can only speak of my experience, but yes I'd say so definitely in the case of dinghy racers. In 20 years of racing various classes on the sea where I encountered non-racing yachts I've never heard a colreg conversation post race. Or to be more accurate, they may have been aware of the existence of the colregs but certainly wouldn't know them.

I too haven't heard a colregs conversation after a dinghy race. Though I think the question of dinghies mixing with cruising vessels is more complicated. I for example was sailing in Brittany this summer and came upon a ton of 505s milling around in front of the port. A charming Frenchman beckoned me over, so I blew the main, tacked and furled the jib. He maneuvered his Dragon to within about 2m alongside, said, "Welcome to Douarnenez!", explained the course, and off I went. And if one thinks about it, in advance of the preparatory signals most dinghies just mill around and are sensible, as indeed are most yachts in a big fleet.

Similarly if cruising the Solent on a race day while sailing on stbd across a fleet on port, 99% of boats will do the sensible thing, slow, then cross clearly in a suitable gap causing minimal disruption. Just like we cross a road. One can of course barge across, but it causes stress at best.

Not to forget that the colregs tend to completely fall over in a busy situation where multiple boats are acquiring and losing stand-on, give-way status every couple of seconds. And yet, common sense aka seamanship seems to do a tremendously good job of avoiding needless contacts

Edit: good racing boats are rarely mouthy, or shouty; rather fast, calm, firm, and friendly. But they may come surprisingly close!

 

[davidlhill]

Edit: good racing boats are rarely mouthy, or shouty; rather fast, calm, firm, and friendly. But they may come surprisingly close!

Spot on.
And totally agree with your Stb approach to a racing fleet on Port. If I bear away a fraction I can enjoy watching the race for a bit, and it reduces stress all round.

 

[lw395]

Obviously I can only speak of my experience, but yes I'd say so definitely in the case of dinghy racers. In 20 years of racing various classes on the sea where I encountered non-racing yachts I've never heard a colreg conversation post race. Or to be more accurate, they may have been aware of the existence of the colregs but certainly wouldn't know them.
....

I think you are both arrogant and wrong to be certain that dinghy racers won't know colregs.
Very often on the sea, dinghy racers also sail other boats.
My club has dinghy racers who know colregs much better than many cruiser owners I have met.
Even a lot of the youngsters have been sailing on family boats, or in some cases, working on family boats, for many years and are quite familiar with both rules and customs.
A lot of these kids have far better situational awareness than some yachtowners who live inland and seem to think as if they are driving a car along a road.

 

[davidlhill]

As soon as I saw your username I knew how you'd respond.

Arrogant? I clearly stated 'I can only speak from my experience'.

From racing dinghies for over 20 years I know we have fabulous situational awareness - that's why on a crowded start line there aren't multiple collisions, and why avoiding one does not lead to instigating a second. Ive raced Merlins, Isos, Wayfarers and Solos to Worlds so not inexperienced.

Still, I will take your word that at your club dinghy sailors learn the colregs as a matter of course.

 

[c.buck]

Here is a colreg/RRS question for you all....


Two boats are sailing downwind on a converging course. One is on starboard, and the other is on port. If the racing rules of sailing apply, then the starboard yacht has right of way. If the ColRegs apply, then the port vessel has right of way, as the other vessel is the give way vessel.

Without any racing going on, the colregs obviously apply. However when yachts are racing at night, or more importantly around sunset, what do you do when two boats come together?

 

[bedouin]

Here is a colreg/RRS question for you all....


Two boats are sailing downwind on a converging course. One is on starboard, and the other is on port. If the racing rules of sailing apply, then the starboard yacht has right of way. If the ColRegs apply, then the port vessel has right of way, as the other vessel is the give way vessel.

Without any racing going on, the colregs obviously apply. However when yachts are racing at night, or more importantly around sunset, what do you do when two boats come together?

In offshore racing colregs apply during hours of darkness - I guess the cut off is when you can no longer tell if the other boat is racing or not

 

[awol]

Here is a colreg/RRS question for you all....


Two boats are sailing downwind on a converging course. One is on starboard, and the other is on port. If the racing rules of sailing apply, then the starboard yacht has right of way. If the ColRegs apply, then the port vessel has right of way, as the other vessel is the give way vessel.

Without any racing going on, the colregs obviously apply. However when yachts are racing at night, or more importantly around sunset, what do you do when two boats come together?

First of all there is no "right of way" under Colregs. Next, which rule makes you thing a boat on starboard tack is "give way" to one on port?

 

[RichardS]

First of all there is no "right of way" under Colregs. Next, which rule makes you thing a boat on starboard tack is "give way" to one on port?

That's puzzling me as well.

Richard

 

[lw395]

I guess he is suggesting that at night, it can be hard to tell a leeward boat on STBD from one who is one port.
E.g. two boats running roughly parallel. Vaguely dead down wind.
A boat on stbd can run by the lee and have precedence over a boat on port, whereas if he kept the same course and gybe his main, he'd be windward boat and therefore keep clear/give way.
Under colregs, if you are on port, you must assume the other vessel is on starboard if you can't tell.
Under RRS I don't think this rule is explicitly still present. But if you were on port and assumed the other boat was also on port, you'd still be in the wrong.
ISTM the racing rules do not allow for a boat of indeterminate tack, like running under twin headsails with no main up.

The big difference is a starboard boat overtaking a port boat is RoW under RRS but keep clear under colregs.
And under RRS, a keep clear boat can alter course and acquire rights in well defined ways, plus a RoW boat is not required to hold its course.

Under either rule set, the general obligation not to hit each other seems to do the job?

 

[Uricanejack]

I should probably know the answer to this, but don't.
I was on port tack when a single-hander in a race fleet, also on port but going much faster than me, came up behind me on my starboard side. He was in a race boat and I was in a charter tub, so despite being close hauled, he managed a higher angle to the wind than I could achieve. That meant that as he came up behind me he was pretty much aiming at me and getting uncomfortably close. I had limited room to maneuver; if I bore off I'd hit him, but if I went higher I'd have to tack or be in irons.
He was obviously on a mission and wasn't about to change course so in the end I luffed up and let him have it.
Question is: I was windward vessel so should have given way. But he was overtaking vessel so should have given way. But by the time things were getting nervy, he was alongside me, so not really in the overtaking situation anymore.
For context, this wasn't an around the cans race but a hop between islands in Greece; there was plenty of sea room, and no other vessels involved so he had could have borne off if he wanted to or was required to. And I wasn't part of the race.
Interested in knowing how others interpret those two rules (or if there is a hard and fast interpretation I should have followed) and what you'd have done in same situation.

Call the committee boat and protest.

 

[awol]

For the benefit of c.buck I offer.

Rule 12
Sailing vessels
(a) When two sailing vessels are approaching one another, so as to involve risk of collision, one of them shall keep out of the way of the other as follows:

(i) when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel which has the wind on the port side shall keep out of the way of the other;

(ii) when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward.

(iii) if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the other vessel has the wind on her port or starboard side, she shall keep out of the way of the other.

(b) For the purposes of this rule the windward side shall be deemed to be the side opposite to that on which the mainsail is carried or, in the case of a square-rigged vessel, the side opposite to that on which the largest fore-and-aft sail is carried.

 

[RichardS]

I guess he is suggesting that at night, it can be hard to tell a leeward boat on STBD from one who is one port.
E.g. two boats running roughly parallel. Vaguely dead down wind.
A boat on stbd can run by the lee and have precedence over a boat on port, whereas if he kept the same course and gybe his main, he'd be windward boat and therefore keep clear/give way.
Under colregs, if you are on port, you must assume the other vessel is on starboard if you can't tell.
Under RRS I don't think this rule is explicitly still present. But if you were on port and assumed the other boat was also on port, you'd still be in the wrong.
ISTM the racing rules do not allow for a boat of indeterminate tack, like running under twin headsails with no main up.

The big difference is a starboard boat overtaking a port boat is RoW under RRS but keep clear under colregs.
And under RRS, a keep clear boat can alter course and acquire rights in well defined ways, plus a RoW boat is not required to hold its course.

Under either rule set, the general obligation not to hit each other seems to do the job?

I don't think so.

He says "Two boats are sailing downwind on a converging course. One is on starboard, and the other is on port. If the racing rules of sailing apply, then the starboard yacht has right of way. If the ColRegs apply, then the port vessel has right of way, as the other vessel is the give way vessel" as an opening general statement, before he goes on to specify further conditions as "at night, or more importantly around sunset" and asks what happens under those specific conditions.

Richard

 

[flaming]

I don't think so.

He says "Two boats are sailing downwind on a converging course. One is on starboard, and the other is on port. If the racing rules of sailing apply, then the starboard yacht has right of way. If the ColRegs apply, then the port vessel has right of way, as the other vessel is the give way vessel" as an opening general statement, before he goes on to specify further conditions as "at night, or more importantly around sunset" and asks what happens under those specific conditions.

Richard

The only circumstance (assuming both boats are in deep water and not engaged in anything other than sailing along on passage) that I can think of where Starboard can be keep clear to Port under COLREGS is if both boats are close to DDW and Starboard is overtaking port. It is also the most obvious circumstances in which COLREGS and RRS differ. Poorly worded but I'd suspect that was the intent of the question.

And the answer to the question is as stated - races use COLREGS after sunset. In the event of a protest where the key factor was if the incident was to be ruled under COLREGS or RRS, then in RORC style racing I would expect the protest committee to determine the time of the incident, and then compare that to the published time of Sunset for the nearest port. For mid ocean protests then the Lat/Long of the incident could then be used to generate a sunset time if necessary. Whilst of course acting stunned that anyone allowed themselves to get into a Port/Starboard protest in an ocean race...

 

[lw395]

I think under colregs, at night, if you are close to DDW, and running vaguely parellel to another boat, there could be a situation where you cannot be sure what tack the other boat is on. If you knew it was on port it would be give way, but if it were on starboard it would be leeward boat and therefore stand on. If you cannot be sure it's on port, you have to give way to it.

Cruising boats strapped up with preventers and poled out gennys can sail by the lee fair bit. As can Lasers racing.

 

[RichardS]

I think under colregs, at night, if you are close to DDW, and running vaguely parellel to another boat, there could be a situation where you cannot be sure what tack the other boat is on. If you knew it was on port it would be give way, but if it were on starboard it would be leeward boat and therefore stand on. If you cannot be sure it's on port, you have to give way to it.

But isn't that simply an "overtaking" situation and ColRegs is crystal clear about which is the give way boat, day or night?

Unless you are thinking of two boats going parallel at the same speed in which case there is no risk of collision. One could, of course, turn in front of the other boat and thereby suddenly create a collision situation where one did not exist before but in that case I suspect that you would be deemed to be in the wrong whatever tack the boats were on. :ambivalence:

Richard

 

[lw395]

But isn't that simply an "overtaking" situation and ColRegs is crystal clear about which is the give way boat, day or night?

Unless you are thinking of two boats going parallel at the same speed in which case there is no risk of collision. One could, of course, turn in front of the other boat and thereby suddenly create a collision situation where one did not exist before but in that case I suspect that you would be deemed to be in the wrong whatever tack the boats were on. :ambivalence:

Richard

No it could be where two boats start off roughly abeam of each other and just move together because they steer down the waves differently or something.

Running by the lee in waves, boats can move across the pitch quite a bit. And as they take turns to surge forwards, they can go from showing you a green light to a white, and back. And that's without them altering heading at all, which they may well do.