Colregs, big mobo/small sailboat, on Hamble and similar

[Never Grumble]

I thought I’d made it absolutely clear in my original post it wasn’t a ferry, but a smallish bulk carrier, heading east, not a ferry heading cross Solent. The ferries in the west do 8-9kn, are considerate to yachts, and we try in return to keep clear of their critical points, like docking at Yarmouth.

I must admit to never having had an issue with the ferries either. I generally try to maintain my course so as not to cause any confusion or cut in front when they are coming down through routes like the Swashway.

 

[winch2]

I was only reacting to someone going on about ferries, anyway. So, the bulk carrier which incidentally is never the give way craft.
Ships do not "steam thru crowds of yachts" They have a set course determined by the tide state and traffic flow. and as Ive said already it is up to we yacht types to know/judge all this and stay outta their way, However thats easy for me to say as Ive been sailing the Solent for ever and yes you get a feel for it, but a feel for it one must have.

As for ferries being "considerate to yachts".? That is never a risk I have any interest in taking.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

I was only reacting to someone going on about ferries, anyway. So, the bulk carrier which incidentally is never the give way craft.
Ships do not "steam thru crowds of yachts" They have a set course determined by the tide state and traffic flow. and as Ive said already it is up to we yacht types to know/judge all this and stay outta their way, ….

Rubbish.

 

[winch2]

but a smallish bulk carrier, heading east

Rubbish.

So are you categorically saying that a big ship has to steer around a tiddly little yacht?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

A 200ft ship in a channel a mile wide and 20m of water, where that channel has upwards of 100 unpowered craft in it, has no business doing 15knots and expecting everyone to keep clear. They are not the stand on vessel by any means, but are usually given the consideration due to commercial traffic. It’s give and take though, they need to give us all the time to keep clear. It’s unusual to see them in the western solent, not something you’d anticipate like you should in the deep water channel to Southampton.

 

[Linksfahrer]

Thankfully I sail out of Plymouth where FLAG / KHM and the Police launches control movement of all , >20mtr , sail races , diving and Princess yacht testing requests, Navy crew transfer, Tugs withs Subs all these movements are approved , even the chain ferry is controlled the Navy have priority. Our biggest fly in ointment is the cross channel ferry as they have a habit of arriving at 20knts and don’t like being told to wait for other shipping. But that’s a French problem not a language barrier.
Reading half of the Colreg discussion above I can’t help thinking that a great many people seem to be drilling down deeper than the opening post needed an answer. If you can remember port out and starboard home and always turn to starboard if a vessel ahead is endangering then the worst will always be avoided. To the clubs racing I would suggest that all races courses are planned and races conducted with appropriate safety boats / VHF and that if /when youngsters are given some guidance before they are let loose then threats are reduced. That’s how it is done on the Tamar . The rest of sailing community should be able to slacken sheets, round up or otherwise start an engine and move round the river in an orderly manner with good cheer and good seamanship.

Ralph ( Wolke HR352 )

 

[Sticky Fingers]

A 200ft ship in a channel a mile wide and 20m of water, where that channel has upwards of 100 unpowered craft in it, has no business doing 15knots and expecting everyone to keep clear. They are not the stand on vessel by any means, but are usually given the consideration due to commercial traffic. It’s give and take though, they need to give us all the time to keep clear. It’s unusual to see them in the western solent, not something you’d anticipate like you should in the deep water channel to Southampton.

Exactly.

So are you categorically saying that a big ship has to steer around a tiddly little yacht?

Yes when they’re the give way vessel and a risk of collision exists. That’s the whole point.

 

[winch2]

Exactly.


Yes when they’re the give way vessel and a risk of collision exists. That’s the whole point

Two points and I'll make them quick cause frankly I cannot beleive what Im reading. Be interesting to hear a pilot chime in actually, anyway.
a, 15 knts is likely to be his minimum manouvering speed without tugs, any slower and he will loose steerage/way and become a floating, out of control blundering deadweight with someones name on it.
b, How come you didnt make the right judgement when he was but a spec on the horizon? And this is what Ive been twittering on about above. When I'm out there Im constantly scanning the middle to far distance for things that are bigger than me and if a biggun comes into view I wind up the grey matter. Anyway thats how Ive always done it, clearly the current way is not do it like that and to some degree let nature take its course. Extraordinary.

 

[finestgreen]

b, How come you didnt make the right judgement when he was but a spec on the horizon? And this is what Ive been twittering on about above. When I'm out there Im constantly scanning the middle to far distance for things that are bigger than me and if a biggun comes into view I wind up the grey matter. Anyway thats how Ive always done it, clearly the current way is not do it like that and to some degree let nature take its course. Extraordinary.

Makes you wonder why they wasted so much time writing the colregs when everyone could just simply not get into a situation where there's a risk of collision.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Two points and I'll make them quick cause frankly I cannot beleive what Im reading. Be interesting to hear a pilot chime in actually, anyway.
a, 15 knts is likely to be his minimum manouvering speed without tugs, any slower and he will loose steerage/way and become a floating, out of control blundering deadweight with someones name on it.
b, How come you didnt make the right judgement when he was but a spec on the horizon? And this is what Ive been twittering on about above. When I'm out there Im constantly scanning the middle to far distance for things that are bigger than me and if a biggun comes into view I wind up the grey matter. Anyway thats how Ive always done it, clearly the current way is not do it like that and to some degree let nature take its course. Extraordinary.

I thought you were a Solent sailor. You know how far it is from Hurst to Yarmouth. We and everyone else had little chance to see it before Hurst. Then it’s 3 mins at most, to work out excactly where he’s going to be, with him altering course to follow the channel. As to 15 knots minimum, don’t be ridiculous. 200ft, he wouldn’t need tugs at all. He could halve his speed, less than that probably, and still be fine. And to turn it around, if 15kn is his minimum, then perhaos, whilst the Needles fairway was a speck on his horizon, he should have realised the utter folly of barging up the western solent on a Saturday afternoon, knowing, if he had any sense, it would be rammed with pleasure craft moving slowly.

 

[benjenbav]

The big orange tanker incident (Hanne Knutsen) is somewhat distinguishable, given the application of Port of Southampton byelaws (moving prohibited zone etc) in addition to Colregs.

It does serve to remind that those same byelaws require vessels over 20m to give notice to HM before entering/leaving the port’s waters - which will have to be done before entering the separate jurisdiction of the Hamble and giving notice to Hamble HM.

 

[dunedin]

I thought you were a Solent sailor. You know how far it is from Hurst to Yarmouth. We and everyone else had little chance to see it before Hurst. Then it’s 3 mins at most, to work out excactly where he’s going to be, with him altering course to follow the channel. As to 15 knots minimum, don’t be ridiculous. 200ft, he wouldn’t need tugs at all. He could halve his speed, less than that probably, and still be fine. And to turn it around, if 15kn is his minimum, then perhaos, whilst the Needles fairway was a speck on his horizon, he should have realised the utter folly of barging up the western solent on a Saturday afternoon, knowing, if he had any sense, it would be rammed with pleasure craft moving slowly.

Yes, as posted earlier about the hypothetical 30m powerboat in the Hamble, COLREGs are only one part of safety at sea / SOLAS.

The requirement to make a passage plan is also a legal requirement - and a ship that cannot steer below 15 knots (very rare these days) would need to show it had considered, assessed and mitigated all the extra risks before coming through the Needles. Timing and likelihood of other craft, including leisure craft at a busy time, should be part of this. In the event of an accident the MAIB would be looking at the documented passage plan in the first instance. Similarly the 30m in the Hamble.

 

[[70521]]

Our biggest fly in ointment is the cross channel ferry as they have a habit of arriving at 20knts and don’t like being told to wait for other shipping. But that’s a French problem not a language barrier.

I have never had a problem with Brittany Ferries, they call Longroom at Penlee Point before entering the Western Entrance; I rather enjoy their accent. Their route and time table is well understood.

There have been two occurrences that I have witnessed involving yachts:

1. Some eejit leaving King Point just as Pont Aven cast off, Longroom had some 'choice words'. I had no idea why the skipper did not put the kettle on and have another mug of tea; and
   
   
2. Pont Aven departed Roscoff when a UK flagged yacht then proceeded to head into the marina from the west. He clearly needed to visit SpecSavers, yes we were that close as I could see the man on the helm from the front of the ship, had not looked round as the Armorique was about to enter. The five blasts were long and deep. I've never see a yacht do a 180° in quarter of its boat length and suspect there was a visit to the laundry after they tied up.

You might enjoy this snap I took of Pont Aven and Armorique passing each other in the Sound. Pont Aven left about two hours late for some reason. Sadly, I did not have my handheld with me - the bridge to bridge exchange would have been in interesting.





They really aught to clean the windows! This would never be allowed on a superyacht.

 

[Biggles Wader]

I sailed on more than one big ship that could not achieve 15 knots flat out with a following wind. Steerage way was about 3-4 knots, less if we had bit of room to swing. Didn't the Pride of Bilbao discover something about the colregs around the South Island?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Yes, as posted earlier about the hypothetical 30m powerboat in the Hamble, COLREGs are only one part of safety at sea / SOLAS.

The requirement to make a passage plan is also a legal requirement - and a ship that cannot steer below 15 knots (very rare these days) would need to show it had considered, assessed and mitigated all the extra risks before coming through the Needles. Timing and likelihood of other craft, including leisure craft at a busy time, should be part of this. In the event of an accident the MAIB would be looking at the documented passage plan in the first instance. Similarly the 30m in the Hamble.

Of course they would. And it really is give and take with colregs. We all have to show a bit of forethought and a bit of consideration. I’m happy to stay away from shipping, they disrupt the wind. I just need a fair chance.

 

[winch2]

I have never had a problem with Brittany Ferries

Its an interesting one. A few summers back was pootling past St Catherines at about 10pm on the way out and a cross channel night flight was creeping up on our port quarter going like the clappers. I hadnt done a night crossing for a while and have to admit to being just a teensy weensy bit concerned following that incident with the small yacht a few years before, and I didnt know which route he was on.....Was he going to turn left or right? Neither he just kept on going... Phew...

 

[winch2]

As to 15 knots minimum, don’t be ridiculous.

"with him altering course to follow the channel"
In which case you should have known where he was going. He has in his sights the turn at Egypt point and the tidal stream off there as we all know is brutal even for a big ship and it all needs to be taken into account.
At the end of the day you can crow all you like re Colregs but as Ive already said in narrow coastal waters with a preponderance of commercial shipping, mighty is always going to be righty and you study the Pilotage and sail accordingly.
When I go out for a sail I spend my time sailing 'around' them and not confronting them,a concept which has given us many many years of enjoyable sailing.

 

[[70521]]

Its an interesting one. A few summers back was pootling past St Catherines at about 10pm on the way out and a cross channel night flight was creeping up on our port quarter going like the clappers. I hadnt done a night crossing for a while and have to admit to being just a teensy weensy bit concerned following that incident with the small yacht a few years before, and I didnt know which route he was on.....Was he going to turn left or right? Neither he just kept on going... Phew...

Sorry I was unclear. I should have said that the BF route from Plymouth Western Approach to Millbay and the timetable is well known. Once the ferry is past Plymouth breakwater then the usual rules apply.

 

[winch2]

Yes when they’re the give way vessel and a risk of collision exists. That’s the whole point.

That is absolutely not the "whole point". Forget about "Give way or "stand on" He's big and can't manourvre, or even if he tried it would mean him having to reconfigure by which time he'll be bearing down on another gaggle, but you can turn on a sixpence. Im very sorry but its type of "yachtie" arrogance that caused that horrific Tanker incident in the first place.

 

[capnsensible]

That is absolutely not the "whole point". Forget about "Give way or "stand on" He's big and can't manourvre, or even if he tried it would mean him having to reconfigure by which time he'll be bearing down on another gaggle, but you can turn on a sixpence. Im very sorry but its type of "yachtie" arrogance that caused that horrific Tanker incident in the first place.

Are you sure it was 'yachtie arrogance'?

I rather thought it was failure to keep a lookout as the enquiry found.