Colregs, big mobo/small sailboat, on Hamble and similar

[Sandy]

I can't see how someone who had been in the RN and had left to join the reserves as well having his day job, whatever that was, has that continually dragged up. Was he even a bridge watchkeeping officer? The fact is he was racing his own yacht and made a major faux pas in the public eye. Would it have been worse if he was a brain surgeon?

Still it did make for some light entertainment. Especially the Hooray Henry doing the commentating, who clearly had no idea of COLREGS and the local arraignments. When he said something like, 'Oh that big orange ship has hit that yacht', you knew he was well out of his depth.

 

[capnsensible]

Still it did make for some light entertainment. Especially the Hooray Henry doing the commentating, who clearly had no idea of COLREGS and the local arraignments. When he said something like, 'Oh that big orange ship has hit that yacht', you knew he was well out of his depth.

So to speak.

 

[winch2]

You lot should have witnessed the consternation caused by a 60m commercial vessel creaming up the western Solent heading for Southampton, at c. 15kn on the last sunny Saturday of September. He was in no doubt as to who was the stand on vessel.

Showing my age now. Anyone else remember the old Townsend Thoreson RoR ferries when they used to come up the the western solent at full chat, No quarter given from what I can remember... Its that terrifying short swell that still haunts me, how the mast didn't used to break I'll never know.

 

[finestgreen]

I agree the last 3 paras as far as that line of thinking goes. But there are more situations than that, eg someone pulling out of a marina into the channel when there is another boat close by. Of course courtesy will tell the former to hold back, but that's us not colliding despite, not because of, the colregs.

Yes, and the similar issue of what rules apply when you're setting a course for the correct side of a channel but not yet in it, which is ambiguous enough to have made it to the supreme court:

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2018-0216-judgment.pdf

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Showing my age now. Anyone else remember the old Townsend Thoreson RoR ferries when they used to come up the the western solent at full chat, No quarter given from what I can remember... Its that terrifying short swell that still haunts me, how the mast didn't used to break I'll never know.

The short chop remains. Anyone who has entered Yarmouth harbour on a stiff N easterly will have that branded on their soul. Oddly it’s worse on the ebb tide, rather than when it’s wind over tide. The trick is to get up as close to the harbour wall as you can if you’re trying to put your fenders out.
I don’t remember ferries as normal traffic. We now just get the odd rogue asserting their rights to do what the….. they like owing to their size and speed. Seriously, no prob if they just slowed down a bit!

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Redj

The short chop remains. Anyone who has entered Yarmouth harbour on a stiff N easterly will have that branded on their soul. Oddly it’s worse on the ebb tide, rather than when it’s wind over tide. The trick is to get up as close to the harbour wall as you can if you’re trying to put your fenders out.
I don’t remember ferries as normal traffic. We now just get the odd rogue asserting their rights to do what the….. they like owing to their size and speed. Seriously, no prob if they just slowed down a bit!

Redjet the current offenders. Seen multiple examples of very poor behaviour from these guys.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Redj

Redjet the current offenders. Seen multiple examples of very poor behaviour from these guys.

At least you know where and when they are. I even look them up in Cowes Week so we know.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

At least you know where and when they are. I even look them up in Cowes Week so we know.

Yup. Ditto the Yarmouth-Lymington ferries, although never seen bad behaviour from them.

 

[capnsensible]

At least you know where and when they are. I even look them up in Cowes Week so we know.

Watched one of the old hydrofoil ferries crash into and sink a yacht very near us at the start of a round the island yacht race many tides ago.

For those who use modern speak it was a 'kinnetic interaction'.

 

[Sandy]

Redj

Redjet the current offenders. Seen multiple examples of very poor behaviour from these guys.

I understand from a resident of Cowes they are not as fast as they used to be. Less speed = less fuel. They have always been extremely polite to use.

Certainly coming up Southampton Water at the beginning of October 2024 with a large car carrier inbound with us, a Redjet, a Wightlink outbound and a work boat mid channel doing something. It was not as pressurised as it has been in the past.

This was all done by eyeball, my chart plotter was un molested while all this was going on.

 

[winch2]

Redjet the current offenders. Seen multiple examples of very poor behaviour from these guys

Never been a problem, we all know their route is stuck on rails, the same every time...simply give them the widest berth possible, about.... ten miles!

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Watched one of the old hydrofoil ferries crash into and sink a yacht very near us at the start of a round the island yacht race many tides ago.

For those who use modern speak it was a 'kinnetic interaction'.

Where there’s a lot of V, there’s even more V squared.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Never been a problem, we all know their route is stuck on rails, the same every time...simply give them the widest berth possible, about.... ten miles!

That’s not my point. The Colregs apply to them equally. Generally given the speed they go they are the overtaking vessels, generally they take early action to make safe passage and generally they are safe and responsible, but sometimes they try to exercise some kind of assumed right of way, five blasts, get out of my way. Awful. @Elessar will corroborate. Seen too often to think it’s a one off. Redjet 7 I mean you in particular.

 

[Dogone]

Colregs question please. Context is narrow channels (eg Hamble), good viz, vessels in sight of each other, no overtaking going on, close quarters risk of collision between a yacht under sail not motor (say a dinghy, or a 10-15m sailing vessel) and a powerboat of 30m. I'm asking here on s'butt mainly to get input from cruising sailors and dinghy sailors/racers.

• Colregs 18 contains what we often call the "power gives way to sail" rule which is: "Except where Rule... 9 ... otherwise require[s ] (a) A power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of: ... (iv) a sailing vessel."
• Colregs 9b, which if applicable takes priority over rule 18, says "(b) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway"
• Colregs 9d says "(d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow channel or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway."
• Colregs 8(f)(i) defines the shall-not-impede concept like this: "A vessel which, by any of these Rules, is required not to impede the passage ... of another vessel shall, when required by the circumstances of the case, take early action to allow sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the other vessel."

You then have the what-to-do rules:

• Colregs 16. Action by give way vessel. Every vessel which is directed to keep out of the way of another vessel shall, so far as possible, take early and substantial action to keep well clear
• Colregs 17. Action by stand on vessel. (a)(i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way the other shall keep her course and speed.

FWIW, nothing in Hamble bye laws is relevant here - Colregs are not meaningfully altered by those bye laws.

I think it's clear from the above that Rule 9 trumps Rule 18 in these circumstances. Then what? Is it correct that the sailing vessel in my scenario is the give way vessel by virtue of 9b? Do sailors in general know/think/agree that? If navigating along the Hamble and there is a group of sailing dinghies, do they generally think are give way? I don't ever remember being taught that as a dinghy sailing/racing kid/teenager. Or is there some other interpretation or rule that I'm missing, that makes the motor boat the give way vessel?

Colregs are (imho, often stated in here on ybw) very imperfectly drafted, which is partly why I ask people's views on this

If I were motoring a big boat up a narrow busy channel like the Hamble I would be operating principally under the law of common sense and Rule 2. (It’s also an issue for me as I have a sailing boat actually more constrained due to its draft, but only bit smaller than the 30m of the subject boat). I would expect to be the stand on vessel for the reasons you gave, but expect to be doing all I could to save the numpty 12 yr old in his Topper from himself. So a hand would be on the throttle, a finger on the horn button and a foot on the wheel.

As an ex-dinghy and small sailing yacht skipper I don’t think my views on this are different from how they were when operating then at that position in the Colregs hierarchy.

There is also the unwritten rule of ‘might is right’ and that has a role in judging the probability of the behaviour of other boats too, both from the standpoint of the big boat and the dinghy.

 

[Mark-1]

I would expect to be the stand on vessel for the reasons you gave, but expect to be doing all I could to save the numpty 12 yr old in his Topper from himself.

12yos in Toppers are highly unlikely to collide with a large boat on a steady course, IME. The boat is highly maneuverable and the helm is at or approaching their peak agility.

They might pass closer than us old duffers feel is comfortable but that's a different issue and I'm sure we did the same when we were their age, so it's karma.

 

[winch2]

The Colregs apply to them equally.

Good luck with that in a court of law. The argument would be about degrees of I suspect and probably common sense too.. Its also worth remembering, fast as they may be they are not actually terribly manouvrable.
In a lifetime sailing the Solent I have always been of this mindset... Never ever get in front of a ferry or any other "big ship". Understand where they go, timetables etc and heed the knowledge. Dont worry about the regs just never get in front them....Slow down, change course, stop, or even go backwards if you have to. In decades mooching about off Cowes and Calshot my thinking has never let me down yet.

 

[B27]

I'm assuming that you're directing these advisories on attitude towards people sailing 30m mobos and the like?
I've no problem with that, but wonder if you've considered how equally applicable they are when levelled at the dinghy sailors too?
Also, as applies to motorcyclists and cyclists on the road, by making the choice to operate a more vulnerable vehicle than those which surround you, the onus is on yourself to mitigate that risk. 'I was in the right' is a pee-poor epitaph

What a terrible attitude.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Good luck with that in a court of law. The argument would be about degrees of I suspect and probably common sense too.. Its also worth remembering, fast as they may be they are not actually terribly manouvrable.
In a lifetime sailing the Solent I have always been of this mindset... Never ever get in front of a ferry or any other "big ship". Understand where they go, timetables etc and heed the knowledge. Dont worry about the regs just never get in front them....Slow down, change course, stop, or even go backwards if you have to. In decades mooching about off Cowes and Calshot my thinking has never let me down yet.

That is sound advice. We were a bit blindsided by our west Solent encounter, no timetable obviously, a weekend, and travelling unusually fast. In the end, we just slowed to almost a stop and let him by, but I was quite resentful. It was unpardonable behaviour, he was not constrained from navigating in any way, just asserted his size and speed.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

That is sound advice. We were a bit blindsided by our west Solent encounter, no timetable obviously, a weekend, and travelling unusually fast. In the end, we just slowed to almost a stop and let him by, but I was quite resentful. It was unpardonable behaviour, he was not constrained from navigating in any way, just asserted his size and speed.

Exactly my experience. In one case, on a forum member’s boat, Redjet shameful behaviour was called out on VTS. Not a single toss was given.

 

[bedouin]

I think the "ambiguity" (not quite the right word) in Colregs is deliberate. There are too many different situations you can encounter for it to be possible to devise hard and fast rules like those we have on the road. Particularly since very few situations only involve two vessels and as soon as 3 or more are involved the inter-relationships get very hard to set in stone.

Fundamentally we are all required not to impede any other vessel.