Colregs, big mobo/small sailboat, on Hamble and similar

[jfm]

Colregs question please. Context is narrow channels (eg Hamble), good viz, vessels in sight of each other, no overtaking going on, close quarters risk of collision between a yacht under sail not motor (say a dinghy, or a 10-15m sailing vessel) and a powerboat of 30m. I'm asking here on s'butt mainly to get input from cruising sailors and dinghy sailors/racers.

• Colregs 18 contains what we often call the "power gives way to sail" rule which is: "Except where Rule... 9 ... otherwise require[s ] (a) A power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of: ... (iv) a sailing vessel."
• Colregs 9b, which if applicable takes priority over rule 18, says "(b) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway"
• Colregs 9d says "(d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow channel or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway."
• Colregs 8(f)(i) defines the shall-not-impede concept like this: "A vessel which, by any of these Rules, is required not to impede the passage ... of another vessel shall, when required by the circumstances of the case, take early action to allow sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the other vessel."

You then have the what-to-do rules:

• Colregs 16. Action by give way vessel. Every vessel which is directed to keep out of the way of another vessel shall, so far as possible, take early and substantial action to keep well clear
• Colregs 17. Action by stand on vessel. (a)(i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way the other shall keep her course and speed.

FWIW, nothing in Hamble bye laws is relevant here - Colregs are not meaningfully altered by those bye laws.

I think it's clear from the above that Rule 9 trumps Rule 18 in these circumstances. Then what? Is it correct that the sailing vessel in my scenario is the give way vessel by virtue of 9b? Do sailors in general know/think/agree that? If navigating along the Hamble and there is a group of sailing dinghies, do they generally think are give way? I don't ever remember being taught that as a dinghy sailing/racing kid/teenager. Or is there some other interpretation or rule that I'm missing, that makes the motor boat the give way vessel?

Colregs are (imho, often stated in here on ybw) very imperfectly drafted, which is partly why I ask people's views on this

 

[Sandy]

Is this a group of racing dinghies? If so then, like cyclists, they don't have a clue about COLREGS or the Highway Code and only have one thing on their mind, winning at all costs.

Take a look at their faces next time and see the look grim determination.

 

[zoidberg]

Is this a group of racing dinghies? If so then, like cyclists, they don't have a clue about COLREGS or the Highway Code.....

Seems true for all grades and sizes of racing dinghy - right up to Class1 boats in RORC events. And negotiating the Solent when the RTIR is on is like The Swindon Magic Roundabout on a Bank Holiday Friday afternoon.

 

[Hermit]

Was the power driven vessel alerting others to the fact of their constraint in accordance with Rule 28?

Vessels constrained by their draught

A vessel constrained by her draught may, in addition to the lights prescribed for power-driven vessels in Rule 23, exhibit where they can best be seen three all-round red lights in a vertical line, or a cylinder.

 

[DownWest]

You don't seem to grasp that THEY ARE RACING, so have right of way in any circumstances......

 

[Sticky Fingers]

My view of this is that jfm’s assertion of Rule 9 trumping R18 et al is correct, provided that as Hermit says the CBD day shape / lights are displayed by the vessel attempting to navigate the fairway. That’s the rules - but I’m also very aware from my own experience in the Hamble and Chichester in particular, that dinghies show no regard for the rules, and if the course is set across the channel that’s even more likely to bring risk of conflict. Also applies to groups of trainee sailors, and to paddleboarders at Swanwick. None of these parties will know of / are likely to take notice of the day shape/lights, but displaying them would assist if the worst were to happen.

One practical suggestion to reduce the likelihood of conflict would be to avoid transiting that area at times when it’s likely to be busy. The local clubs would be able to advise.

 

[ylop]

Do sailors in general know/think/agree that? If navigating along the Hamble and there is a group of sailing dinghies, do they generally think are give way?

A group of dinghies could be anything from people a few days into sailing under the “watchful” eye of an instructor to elite racers or a dinghy cruising muster or club handicap racing or just coincidentally a bunch of dinghies that bunched up together after the last big powerboat came through effectively closing the channel. Its not possible to assume any particular knowledge, interpretation or understanding.

I don't ever remember being taught that as a dinghy sailing/racing kid/teenager.

See you have probably answered your own question! I do recall sail over power always being caveated (although I learned where there was a small “ferry” that gave way to nobody! It was just common sense that if you were coming through a channel and there was a big ship that you were not going to win. I don’t recall as a dinghy sailor being told 20m rule - nor do I know how in a wayfarer dinghy I would establish if the powerboat that is 1/4NM away is 19m or 21m. Similarly with no idea of its draft, nor a chart on board a topper it may not be apparent that it is constrained to the channel.

Or is there some other interpretation or rule that I'm missing, that makes the motor boat the give way vessel?

Well the rule that says if the give way vessel doesn’t appear to be taking sufficient action you need to take your own steps eventually applies. If it’s a real problem then narrow channels almost always have a HM, so after you have made sure there are no NTM announcing special arrangements for a race etc you can grumble to them. (Or eg as in Oban bay vessels >20m are expected to announce their planned approach on vhf so others can act accordingly).

Whilst Sandy’s stereotypes of both cyclists and dinghy sailors is often wrong - I’d suggest this is just like meeting a bike or pedestrian in your car. They may know the rules, they may even understand the nuances about their mode of transport better than you, or they may not have a clue but in any case if a truck drove at a group of cyclists who should have given way rather than just lifting off the throttle or a car driver made some joggers jump out the road, sensible observers would suggest that quoting Highway Code rules is not actually a sensible way to avoid accidents.

 

[benjenbav]

Colregs question please. Context is narrow channels (eg Hamble), good viz, vessels in sight of each other, no overtaking going on, close quarters risk of collision between a yacht under sail not motor (say a dinghy, or a 10-15m sailing vessel) and a powerboat of 30m. I'm asking here on s'butt mainly to get input from cruising sailors and dinghy sailors/racers.

• Colregs 18 contains what we often call the "power gives way to sail" rule which is: "Except where Rule... 9 ... otherwise require[s ] (a) A power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of: ... (iv) a sailing vessel."
• Colregs 9b, which if applicable takes priority over rule 18, says "(b) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway"
• Colregs 9d says "(d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow channel or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway."
• Colregs 8(f)(i) defines the shall-not-impede concept like this: "A vessel which, by any of these Rules, is required not to impede the passage ... of another vessel shall, when required by the circumstances of the case, take early action to allow sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the other vessel."

You then have the what-to-do rules:

• Colregs 16. Action by give way vessel. Every vessel which is directed to keep out of the way of another vessel shall, so far as possible, take early and substantial action to keep well clear
• Colregs 17. Action by stand on vessel. (a)(i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way the other shall keep her course and speed.

FWIW, nothing in Hamble bye laws is relevant here - Colregs are not meaningfully altered by those bye laws.

I think it's clear from the above that Rule 9 trumps Rule 18 in these circumstances. Then what? Is it correct that the sailing vessel in my scenario is the give way vessel by virtue of 9b? Do sailors in general know/think/agree that? If navigating along the Hamble and there is a group of sailing dinghies, do they generally think are give way? I don't ever remember being taught that as a dinghy sailing/racing kid/teenager. Or is there some other interpretation or rule that I'm missing, that makes the motor boat the give way vessel?

Colregs are (imho, often stated in here on ybw) very imperfectly drafted, which is partly why I ask people's views on this

I agree that Colregs are imperfectly drafted but I don’t think this question is so much about establishing right and wrong after the event as whether they provide useful guidance to prevent the event occurring.

For that, both parties (let’s assume there are just two for the moment) need to understand what to expect of the other and of themselves.

The 30m vessel is well-chosen for the question. If it were 130m then it would be clear to (virtually) all others that it would be constrained by its draught (as those familiar with colregs would understand the concept) and unable to dart about to avoid other vessels by those Hamble users whose minds have never been troubled by colregs.

But, at 30m it’s a much greyer issue. Would a youth who has never even heard of colregs and with no more in their mind than trying to sail faster than their competitors intuitively understand that the 30m vessel is CDD? And if not, then what?

Would CDD lights or the appropriate dayshape help? Rule 28 only says that a vessel that is CDD may (not shall) display them anyway. And if the other party hasn’t read colregs what meaning would a black cylinder confer anyway?

So, the master of the 30m CDD vessel is in a bind. Go aground or run down the youth in the Laser. How to mitigate this risk? Well, again, the overarching principle of avoiding a collision that’s embedded in colregs seems somewhat trite: the CDD vessel is, by definition, constrained in its movements; meanwhile the Laser is not some vessel that is approaching on a steady vector that allows adjustments to be made: it may be crossing the channel in a matter of seconds and changing course on every wind shift.

Lots of rambling; in short what I would do as master of the CDD vessel is this:

1 Display the right shapes/lights and proceed in a manner consistent with a CDD vessel.

2 Assume that I might be interacting with folk that don’t understand CDD and to whom the warnings of same have no meaning and who are paying attention to anything but my progress.

3 Double my lookout: crew, electronics, whatever.

4 Add audible warnings. Plenty of them. Well in advance.

 

[wonkywinch]

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools

I'm based in the Hamble and regularly sail around the Solent. There are often races going on (across the river near HM in particular). Also the area around Coronation/North Channel. Despite being stand on, I would always give way (usually by a wide margin).

The guys/girls are out having fun and I don't want to cost somebody the race just because of an arrogant "I'm stand on" attitude. Similarly, I give way to the ferries because they are at work just doing their job trying to maintain a timetable.

Just because I might be stand on, doesn't mean I own that bit of water, it's for all of us to share.

 

[finestgreen]

Was the power driven vessel alerting others to the fact of their constraint in accordance with Rule 28?

Vessels constrained by their draught

A vessel constrained by her draught may, in addition to the lights prescribed for power-driven vessels in Rule 23, exhibit where they can best be seen three all-round red lights in a vertical line, or a cylinder.

I believe the safely navigate in 9b is much wider in scope than "constrained by draught"

 

[RobbieW]

Part of the problem here is whether it is sensible to operate a 30m vessel in a busy, narrow channel of several miles. On the Hamble the HM has widely observed rules about the areas that dinghy racing can take place, away from the main channel. Dinghies still need to get from their base to the racing area but, with a few exceptions, they are not racing when they do this and can use the area outside the main channel. Larger sailing vessels, cruisers etc, often sail along the navigable channel but it would be rare for them not to have an engine.

 

[ylop]

So, the master of the 30m CDD vessel is in a bind. Go aground or run down the youth in the Laser.

He does have another option which is often ignored - change his speed. You’ve also alluded to making audible warnings - if he genuinely doesn’t know what the dinghies intend five short blasts is the correct message. Even if the dinghies don’t know what that means they will certainly have his attention! It may well be that the dinghies perceive no threat from him because they are fast and manoeuvrable. If it’s a flotilla of dinghies there is usually some sort of safety boat - 5 blasts should get there attention too if one of the fleet is really not getting it.

Part of the problem here is whether it is sensible to operate a 30m vessel in a busy, narrow channel of several miles.

Is that not precisely why the channel exists?

 

[wonkywinch]

Part of the problem here is whether it is sensible to operate a 30m vessel in a busy, narrow channel of several miles. On the Hamble the HM has widely observed rules about the areas that dinghy racing can take place, away from the main channel.

Looked like someone tried it the other day!

 

[RobbieW]

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools

I'm based in the Hamble and regularly sail around the Solent. There are often races going on (across the river near HM in particular). Also the area around Coronation/North Channel. Despite being stand on, I would always give way (usually by a wide margin).

The guys/girls are out having fun and I don't want to cost somebody the race just because of an arrogant "I'm stand on" attitude. Similarly, I give way to the ferries because they are at work just doing their job trying to maintain a timetable.

Just because I might be stand on, doesn't mean I own that bit of water, it's for all of us to share.

As someone involved with race management on the Hamble, HRSC, the race officers set courses that do not cross main channels. Even the North channel is avoided as much as possible but competitors will be reminded, where a course does cross the channel, of it.

 

[finestgreen]

Farwell's Rules of the Nautical Road:

"Together, Rules 9(b) and 8(f) advise ... so far as practicable, the vessel directed not to impede the other must navigate in such a way as to avoid the developing risk of collision. In the end, if a situation develops so as to involve risk of collision, the vessel whose passage was not to be impeded must comply with the steering and sailing rules ... However, Rule 8(f)(ii) makes it clear that the encroaching vessel ... cannot seek shelter as a potential stand-on vessel"

"The lights and day shape prescribed by Rule 28 are permissive, and there is nothing in Rule 9 that indicates that the presence or absence of such distinctive marks is dispositive of the vessels rights and obligations under Rule 9. ... the definition of a vessel constrained by her draught is broader than the class of vessels that can safely navigate only within the narrow channel"


Ie, the sailing boat is obliged to keep out of the way of the power boat - not just to avoid collision but they should avoid being in a situation where risk of collision exists

 

[johnalison]

The OP was about a power vessel of 30m in a narrow channel, which in any terms is a whopper and in my world counts as a ship. I would certainly expect it to claim stand-on rights in any narrow channel whether I were sailing or not.

 

[RobbieW]

He does have another option which is often ignored - change his speed. You’ve also alluded to making audible warnings - if he genuinely doesn’t know what the dinghies intend five short blasts is the correct message. Even if the dinghies don’t know what that means they will certainly have his attention! It may well be that the dinghies perceive no threat from him because they are fast and manoeuvrable. If it’s a flotilla of dinghies there is usually some sort of safety boat - 5 blasts should get there attention too if one of the fleet is really not getting it.

Is that not precisely why the channel exists?

As you say, 5 short blasts and slow as much as possible. Unlike a large truck, often you cant just stop a large vessel and maintain control. The Hamble, with which I'm very familiar, has a number of tight bends with little in the way of options from Swanwick to Mercury.

 

[Bristolfashion]

Of course, small, unpowered boats may be "constrained by wind" and have difficulty getting out of the way in a river where a larger boat can appear around the corner. Dinghy fleets can be highly experienced racers or, as outside our window most days, "little tackers" learning the ropes - and capsizing a lot - and we have the big sand dredgers & other sizeable craft passing.

 

[RobbieW]

Looked like someone tried it the other day!
View attachment 184056

That looks like Seafin bragging

 

[B27]

A 30m vessel isn't a 'powerboat', it's a small-medium ship.
Particularly in the context of a crowded river like the Hamble.

Once you get up to that sort of size, you can be in the realms of needing permission from the harbourmaster to move..
You might even need a Pilot.

A lot of the frothing comes from people not understanding other people's perceptions of when ' a risk of collision exists'.

Also the concept of 'shall not impede' does not mean 'shall allow to operate as if they're the only vessel on the water'.
It's not something that can be accurately paraphrased in a few words