Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

[JumbleDuck]

Re: MAIB report seriously flawed - Clipper

I think you mean "if safety was absolute", then I'd agree with you. It's about managing risk, at whatever level of sailing we all do, amd Clipper IMHO are v.good at that.

We seem to be in broad agreement - just a difference in terminology. What worries me about Clipper, as an outside observer, is that they come across as very resistant to any suggestions about how to improve things. "Not invented here" and "we know best" are not attitudes which suggest a strong safety culture, Neither, of course, are a series of injuries and deaths.

 

[Tintin]

Re: MAIB report seriously flawed - Clipper

We seem to be in broad agreement - just a difference in terminology. What worries me about Clipper, as an outside observer, is that they come across as very resistant to any suggestions about how to improve things. "Not invented here" and "we know best" are not attitudes which suggest a strong safety culture, Neither, of course, are a series of injuries and deaths.

Thankfully your outside observation is incorrect.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Re: MAIB report seriously flawed - Clipper

Thankfully your outside observation is incorrect.

Mmm. That's not the impression I get from the MAIB reports.

 

[thinwater]

I think they should.

They will learn that MAIB let Spinlock off light on the failed tether, which was the ultimate cause.

So far as I know, every other locking tether clip has better than 3 times the side load strength and meets additional ISO standards. It seems Spinlock is quietly discontinuing the model, without recall, which tells you all you need to know. Why MAIB could not spit this out and why MAIB implied inaccurately that appropriate standards do not exist is beyond explanation. In fact, Spinlock supplied the stronger clips (Performance line) to many pro teams, so they obviously knew of the differences. Ironically, the stronger clips are cheaper and lighter.

 

[mm42]

I wonder how many at the MAIB have sailed the southern ocean and have any idea what it is like. Sitting at a desk producing guide lines with the power of hindsight.......ummmm now that's a challenge

Most MAIB are retired professional mariners with many years of experience. Hardly desk jockeys.

 

[Tintin]

Most MAIB are retired professional mariners with many years of experience. Hardly desk jockeys.

But still lie. Hence the challenge.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

I am astonished that anyone attacks a professional organisation that carefully lists safety issues without casting blame. Do they think its ok the people die in pointless accidents? Do they heriocally refuse to wear their own LJ, safety harness seatbelt etc?

There is not a single MAIB report that I have read that did not make me go, hm, something to consider.

Yet some of those on this forum attack the MAIB rather than the cause of the deaths. W.T.F

 

[JumbleDuck]

But still lie. Hence the challenge.

Do we have any evidence that they lied rather than made a mistake? Apart from an article by the spokesperson for an organisation facing multiple lawsuits, that is.

 

[scotty123]

Most MAIB are retired professional mariners with many years of experience. Hardly desk jockeys.

But do they know a lot about yachts?

 

[Sandy]

But still lie. Hence the challenge.

Err umm...

In the day job I investigate and write reports on safety critical incidents, not for the MAIB or AAIB. We write reports on the evidence that we see. If there is an misunderstanding corrections are made. Lying is not a good idea in court.

 

[dom]

Do we have any evidence that they lied rather than made a mistake? Apart from an article by the spokesperson for an organisation facing multiple lawsuits, that is.

You've got to the heart of it there. Few would argue that Clipper's business model is under challenge, or that its brand has been seriously damaged. Its target audience is not on here, it's the wider public, whose primary research tool is Google, and who by and large take seriously the now well publicised criticism from professional accident investigators and regulatory authorities.

As a corporate facing the threat of protracted litigation and censure, Clipper has a limited number of choices.

The first, adopt a mea culpa approach under which past mistakes are recognised and and amends made as necessary. This is usually the chosen/recommended route for large companies such as pharmas, big oil, banks, mining, aerospace, etc. No point in Boeing dismissing aircraft accident investigators as sofa pilots, or for a large bank to similarly dismiss the BoE/FCA. A few acolytes might buy it, the public won't.

The upside of this approach is that a line can be drawn under the matter, but with smaller companies the costs may represent an existential threat.

A second option is to fight, to question the knowledge, experience, professional integrity, even the truthfulness of professional accident investigators and prosecutors. This approach rarely works, especially if the targeted bodies are riled into action. For the legal and administrative expenses of a protracted challenge can be ruinous.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

[Uricanejack]

No.

It was clear it was initiated by their release. It was not clear the article was actually written by them.

There is something odd about this. My understanding is that MAIB investigations are shared with stakeholders in advance. If you believe there are factual inaccuracies you report them then. If they did that why didn't MAIB fix them? If they didn't, why didn't they?

I do think MAIB have a reputation for obsession about certain things.

I have nothing much to say about Clipper. I would advise Clipper to get a new PR guy. Or at least to distance themselves from the author of this article.
Why?
I do know the MAIB.
The MAIB is not infallible, I have often wondered about some of the conclusions the MAIB come to. I often wonder why certain questions were never answered.
Having not been party to the investigation. I don’t have the information. I can only conclude the information was either irrelevant, unavailable or inconclusive.
The reports are not perfect, they are only as good as the information they are based on.
Some is derived from hard evidence.
Some is derived from eye witness recollections
Some is contracture.
So errors or omissions are not unusual.
Differences of opinion when it comes to which recollections are correct or more likely.
Which conjecture is more likely.
Is part of the process.

The initial draft report is written by the investigators. From their raw findings which are never made public.
In fact they are privileged so they can’t be used for any other civil or criminal,
The initial report written by the investigators is sent to their bosses and legal reps and re written to ensure it fits their mandate.
This becomes the initial report now written by people who write reports.
Some bits and pieces may get lost in translation. Some get softened.
When the MAIB is happy.
The initial report is not made public.
It is sent to all the interested parties concerned and in particular their legal representatives.
It is still a privileged document.
Every interested party get to have input and have thier legal representation pick it apart.
If thier is disagreement this is when it is brought up and argued.
If an interested party believes there are errors of fact or opinion they get to bring it up.
This report can still be changed.
Most report for big events go back and forth several times.
Before it is finalized.
The final report is released to the interested parties shortly before bien made public.
Ie the day before.
Allowing the interested parties to prepare a response or statement.

The best advice to an organization which is the subject of a report. Would be shut the @#$& up.
Thank the MAIB for the report, thier recommendations and all thier help.
Confirm they are considering the recommendations and implemented.

The recommendations are not binding, they are simply recommended.
Many recommendations are never implemented. For many reasons.
Sometime what looks like a simple recommendation is not simple at all.
Sometimes they might turn out not to be good ideas when other factors are considered.

The MAIB have been possibly the leading maritime investigation organization in the world for decades.

If Clipper had concerns about the report. Clipper had ample opportunity to raise this concerns. Have those concerns addressed and if appropriate amendments made.
Even if they find some aspects of the final report they disagree with. They can have this noted in the report.
Failing this clipper could have issued a statement disagree with the report at the time of publication.

Most good advice would be. Don’t do it. Just smile accept and ignore what you really don’t like. Provided you can provide a good reason for not implementing thier recommendations. Or just drag your feet.

By contrast, I’m sure there are people at Boeing who would just love to tell the NTSB and the FAA to F off. They will work with the NTSB and FAA to come up wth something workable.

Meanwhile although Clipper may have many believers here.
The worlds maritime industry, will not be impressed.

 

[Blue Sunray]

I have nothing much to say about Clipper. I would advise Clipper to get a new PR guy. Or at least to distance themselves from the author of this article.
Why?
I do know the MAIB.
The MAIB is not infallible, I have often wondered about some of the conclusions the MAIB come to. I often wonder why certain questions were never answered.
Having not been party to the investigation. I don’t have the information. I can only conclude the information was either irrelevant, unavailable or inconclusive.
The reports are not perfect, they are only as good as the information they are based on.
Some is derived from hard evidence.
Some is derived from eye witness recollections
Some is contracture.
So errors or omissions are not unusual.
Differences of opinion when it comes to which recollections are correct or more likely.
Which conjecture is more likely.
Is part of the process.

The initial draft report is written by the investigators. From their raw findings which are never made public.
In fact they are privileged so they can’t be used for any other civil or criminal,
The initial report written by the investigators is sent to their bosses and legal reps and re written to ensure it fits their mandate.
This becomes the initial report now written by people who write reports.
Some bits and pieces may get lost in translation. Some get softened.
When the MAIB is happy.
The initial report is not made public.
It is sent to all the interested parties concerned and in particular their legal representatives.
It is still a privileged document.
Every interested party get to have input and have thier legal representation pick it apart.
If thier is disagreement this is when it is brought up and argued.
If an interested party believes there are errors of fact or opinion they get to bring it up.
This report can still be changed.
Most report for big events go back and forth several times.
Before it is finalized.
The final report is released to the interested parties shortly before bien made public.
Ie the day before.
Allowing the interested parties to prepare a response or statement.

The best advice to an organization which is the subject of a report. Would be shut the @#$& up.
Thank the MAIB for the report, thier recommendations and all thier help.
Confirm they are considering the recommendations and implemented.

The recommendations are not binding, they are simply recommended.
Many recommendations are never implemented. For many reasons.
Sometime what looks like a simple recommendation is not simple at all.
Sometimes they might turn out not to be good ideas when other factors are considered.

The MAIB have been possibly the leading maritime investigation organization in the world for decades.

If Clipper had concerns about the report. Clipper had ample opportunity to raise this concerns. Have those concerns addressed and if appropriate amendments made.
Even if they find some aspects of the final report they disagree with. They can have this noted in the report.
Failing this clipper could have issued a statement disagree with the report at the time of publication.

Most good advice would be. Don’t do it. Just smile accept and ignore what you really don’t like. Provided you can provide a good reason for not implementing thier recommendations. Or just drag your feet.

By contrast, I’m sure there are people at Boeing who would just love to tell the NTSB and the FAA to F off. They will work with the NTSB and FAA to come up wth something workable.

Meanwhile although Clipper may have many believers here.
The worlds maritime industry, will not be impressed.

:encouragement:

 

[capnsensible]

Clipper boats rarely anchor. Nothing wrong with their choice. And the anchor and chain are stored low below as is common on other race boats.

The choice of anchor hardly damns an entire organisation, and my personal experience of Clipper is /was hugely impressed with their training, maintenance and safety culture.

Ocean racing is dangerous. Clipper IMHO do all they can to de-risk it, and I would always prefer to have a Clipper trained crew than a weekend solent sailor.

Does the RYA examinations require you to demonstrate how to handle a MOB from first alert thru to having the victim safely below decks and receiving treatment? No, but all Clipper crew learn this, and in fact a day in clipper training rarely goes by where the full procedure is not tested or run thru at least once with "Bob", a weighted clothed victim.

Happy to make a small correction there about RYA training. MOB recovery and full follow up action is taught. Dont think thats a critisism of you though, Im completely supportive of your position. I believe you have actually been there done that' with Clipper. I therefore trust your opinion way above the armchair warmers on here.

In a forum of the pompous, the pragmatist is king!

 

[JumbleDuck]

Happy to make a small correction there about RYA training. MOB recovery and full follow up action is taught. Dont think thats a critisism of you though, Im completely supportive of your position. I believe you have actually been there done that' with Clipper. I therefore trust your opinion way above the armchair warmers on here.

Whereas I trust the professionals at the MAIB rather more than someone who once met some Clipper employees in a pub. We all have our own standards.

 

[capnsensible]

Whereas I trust the professionals at the MAIB rather more than someone who once met some Clipper employees in a pub. We all have our own standards.

That may apply to someone, I suppose. Dont know anyone like that, though.

I do know a guy quite well who skippered one race, has trained their coxswains, carrys out a lot of Recognised Training Centres inspections on behalf of the RYA and kindly invited myself and some others aboard a Clipper Yacht for a looky looky.

I would say he is one of the UK's leading experts in safety at sea. Again I put my trust in the real people, not 'stuff I read on the internet'.

Its a sailor thing.

 

[capnsensible]

Should add, we have been to a few pubs together too.......

 

[JumbleDuck]

I do know a guy quite well who skippered one race, has trained their coxswains, carrys out a lot of Recognised Training Centres inspections on behalf of the RYA and kindly invited myself and some others aboard a Clipper Yacht for a looky looky.

Sounds quite a guy. What did he say about the three recent deaths?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I think they should.

They will learn that MAIB let Spinlock off light on the failed tether, which was the ultimate cause.

So far as I know, every other locking tether clip has better than 3 times the side load strength and meets additional ISO standards. It seems Spinlock is quietly discontinuing the model, without recall, which tells you all you need to know. Why MAIB could not spit this out and why MAIB implied inaccurately that appropriate standards do not exist is beyond explanation. In fact, Spinlock supplied the stronger clips (Performance line) to many pro teams, so they obviously knew of the differences. Ironically, the stronger clips are cheaper and lighter.

However, it should be noted that Spinlock specifically state that lateral loading, the exact method of failure on the Clipper race is to be avoided. While the Spinlock Performance is a superior safety tether, the discussion should really be focussed on elimination of side load risk in a jack stay set up.

From their web site: -

WARNING: THE SAFETY LINE HOOK MUST BE FREE TO ROTATE TO ALIGN WITH THE LOAD. LATERAL LOADING OF THE HOOK MUST BE AVOIDED.

As for Clipper taking taking action against the MCA / MAIB, if they feel that the standard of the investigation has been so poor as to provide wrong information, then they must take action.

 

[capnsensible]

Sounds quite a guy. What did he say about the three recent deaths?

Ive not spoken to him since the last one. But Im absolutely sure he will have been devastated to learn of the tragic death of someone he personally knew and sailed with.

What would you expect?