Kukri
Well-known member
Would it be very wrong of me to say that Boeing have been CATNAPing?
Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?
- Thread starter dunedin
- Start date
Tintin
Well-known member
Which is why Clipper insist on metal clips on their lJ's, which also avoids the issues of clips being trodden on and potential split.
Dutch01527
Well-known member
Safety is a relative thing. Racing yachts around the world is a dangerous endeavour. People will get hurt and killed. Everyone who goes understands and accepts that.
I have not seen anything in the MAIB reports that indicate that Clipper Ventures are negligent in taking safety seriously.
I have not seen anything in the MAIB reports that indicate that Clipper Ventures are negligent in taking safety seriously.
thinwater
Well-known member
I agree totally here. Surely just about all crotch straps are designed to stop the lifejacket riding up when the wearer is in the water so wouldn't be designed to have the full body weight as either SWL or from an ergonomic perspective? That's what I've always assumed and I really don't fancy being lifted out of freezing water by even a couple of 1" webbing straps - that would be about 100Kg on them if you lifted a largish bloke out. It's also a huge load on the heart of the casualty given temperatures and the angle he/she is being lifted at. Ignoring the angle of lift the LJ would need to be similar to a climbing harness - Petzl know more about this than most and this is their high-end offering (actually it looks a little like something from a specialist lingerie catalogue in that photo). Something like that would be pretty wearable on board but it still needs something that can keep you attached to the boat and tow you on your back.
https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/Harnesses/SITTA
]
The strap width is not really a big problem. I took 6 UIAA fall factor 1 drops on this harness, with 1" straps widened to 1.5 inches in the bearing surface (no padding). The climbing rope was wrecked, but I was fine, with no discomfort.
The main advantages of this harness concept are:
* Great comfort. Better than crotch straps. The crossover on the thigh slides, so that it never binds when you move. This feature also makes it very size adjustable.
* Clips on to any chest harness or inflatable PFD combo.
* Comfortable for suspension for long periods. You'll get board first.
* Cannot slip out. Full body.
[This is an open source idea. There is no commercial interest. I just wanted to show that a sailing harness could be full impact and still be very comfortable, unlike industrial harnesses. I see it as very practical for foredeck crew.]
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JumbleDuck
Well-known member
Well, maybe. Paying clients thinking of taking a berth with Clipper - or any other operator, for that matter - need to know what the risks are and need to rely on the organisers to reduce and mitigate them to an acceptable level. That means "acceptable to the client" and needs a lot of information and a lot of trust.
So ... how many injuries and deaths per race do Clipper tell their customers to expect?
My reading is that they take it seriously but are very reluctant to accept external review or spend money on external suggestions of how things could be improved.
TLouth7
Active member
I think the tether issue is a red herring. The dispute is not with the finding that the tether was inadequate, but with other elements of the investigation and its conclusions. Surely it is a matter of record whether there was a vessel in the vicinity which seems to be the primary grievance, and also whether Clipper had implemented the MAIB's recommendations at the time of publishing its report.
Claims of collusion and a lack of impartiality will be much harder to prove and should be good fun for plenty of lawyers, but the battle is likely to be damaging to the reputations of all parties.
Claims of collusion and a lack of impartiality will be much harder to prove and should be good fun for plenty of lawyers, but the battle is likely to be damaging to the reputations of all parties.
Resolution
Well-known member
Perhaps we will learn more during the action surrounding the departure of the next race, from St Katherine Dock, very shortly. (Some are ) Locking in this Thursday afternoon, for those who want to see them display their boat handling skills.
thinwater
Well-known member
The failed tether is not really a dig at Clipper. It's a dig at Spinlock. They've stubbed their tow on safety gear a few times.
Kukri
Well-known member
Clipper have re-flagged to Malta.
They are serious.
They are serious.
Neeves
Well-known member
Clipper were under no obligation to buy from Spinlock - they had a choice and chose badly. Spinlock lost touch - but that does not absolve Clipper (nor Spinlock). I thought the investigation was focussed at decisions and choices made by Clipper (not the inadequacies of chosen suppliers).
Minn - sorry to be so uneducated - what are the implications to Malta registration (in terms of safety and potential loss of life).
Jonathan
Kukri
Well-known member
Neeves I think you are being rather hard on Clipper. We have to think back to what was known at the time. Spinlock had an excellent reputation as makers of good quality equipment. We can’t expect people running a business to investigate the minutiae of each item of equipment in the way that you and I do.
Clipper joining the exodus from the British flag looks like a gesture to make the MCA pay attention. I have a lot to do with the MCA and have had to do with the MAIB. I think Clipper are very likely to be right in their complaints.
Point is, Clipper are a very prominent British brand headed by a man who is something of a Living National Treasure. If Clipper show that they have no confidence in the British flag, as they just have done, the knock on effect on the whole British yachting business including the RYA and the superyacht sector is going to be serious.
Clipper joining the exodus from the British flag looks like a gesture to make the MCA pay attention. I have a lot to do with the MCA and have had to do with the MAIB. I think Clipper are very likely to be right in their complaints.
Point is, Clipper are a very prominent British brand headed by a man who is something of a Living National Treasure. If Clipper show that they have no confidence in the British flag, as they just have done, the knock on effect on the whole British yachting business including the RYA and the superyacht sector is going to be serious.
scotty123
Well-known member
When any high profile business like CV buy stuff, or have any involvement with another business, there is a certain 'quid pro quo' involved. Spinlock as you mentioned, have a reputation for quality equipment & will have enhanced their profile by having an exclusive deal with CV, the latter 'buying in' from Spinlock (or even a freeby) so both get a better profile.
How many weekend Solent sailors will have been coaxed into buying a 'top of the range' Spinlock, because RTW sailors are using it? How many worldwide customers will CV have gained, because they are seen to be using 'superior' kit & not 'penny pinching'? As in any sphere, businesses depend upon other businesses.
Neeves
Well-known member
I beg to differ.
I am hard - a man died, over the history - its not an exception
I and most have no ability to investigate the detail - I would need to rely on external sources (one of which might be Clipper and another might be PBO or Practical Sailor). I expect a business, whose modus operandi is to make money in a risky environment to exhaustively research life dependent 'kit'. The employees should be experts in their field, should know there were different clips and should have researched what those differences are. Its not as if falling overboard is an exception. Others used better clips - did no-one in Clipper ask why these others did not choose Spinlock.
Jonathan
Resolution
Well-known member
What were the alternative tethers and clips used by these "others"?
Like many yacht owners, when I kitted out the current boat I mostly went for the best gear available in the boating market. My clips look near identical to those used last time by Clipper. They are a right b****r to clip on to the lifelines, so I would probably have used alternatives if they were there in the chandleries. But none came to my notice.
Peter
Resolution
Well-known member
I agree with that.
Last night when the race fleet arrived at St Katherine Dock they were all flying Maltese ensigns with a small red ensign at the spreader as a courtesy flag only. Of course the red ensign will disappear for the rest of the race and the Maltese flag will be flown / worn at each of their stopovers around the world.
Neeves
Well-known member
A different tack.
20 years ago Yachting Monthly, Practical Boat Owner, Practical Sailor, SAIL et al - one of them would have conducted tests on a whole variety of product. Today magazines are fighting a rearguard action and magazine budgets are being pruned, in the extreme magazines are closing. Today people rely on 'the internet' for their technical information.
Who here is willing to take on testing of tethers and their clips, helmets, LJs, anchors, foul weather gear - add to the list anything you like. People are quick to damn some test protocols - but without gifted amateurs or passionate individuals willing to use skills learnt in other careers - it would be a poorer place (and getting more so)
It took Thinwater (after the event), an American writing for an American magazine to expose the weakness of the Spinlock clip. If Thinwater had not done the test - did anyone else do it?? One would have thought PBO would have immediately actioned an investigation - it was a failure of a product by a Prominent British Brand headed by a Living National Treasure - it is surely an embarrassment.
I have to repeat
A man died - it is possible he need not have done.
Jonathan
20 years ago Yachting Monthly, Practical Boat Owner, Practical Sailor, SAIL et al - one of them would have conducted tests on a whole variety of product. Today magazines are fighting a rearguard action and magazine budgets are being pruned, in the extreme magazines are closing. Today people rely on 'the internet' for their technical information.
Who here is willing to take on testing of tethers and their clips, helmets, LJs, anchors, foul weather gear - add to the list anything you like. People are quick to damn some test protocols - but without gifted amateurs or passionate individuals willing to use skills learnt in other careers - it would be a poorer place (and getting more so)
It took Thinwater (after the event), an American writing for an American magazine to expose the weakness of the Spinlock clip. If Thinwater had not done the test - did anyone else do it?? One would have thought PBO would have immediately actioned an investigation - it was a failure of a product by a Prominent British Brand headed by a Living National Treasure - it is surely an embarrassment.
I have to repeat
A man died - it is possible he need not have done.
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-known member
Just read Thinwater's posts, search Practical Sailor on tether hooks, look at Volvo videos
As an introduction start here
https://www.practical-sailor.com/blog/Tether-Clip-Update-12345-1.html
Jonathan
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Giblets
Well-known member
Judging by the advantages I would have thought more of a commercial decision.
https://mmtaxadvisors.com/blog/malta-commercial-yachts/
Pump-Out
Active member
Would it not be to prevent MAIB being involved in any other accident investigation, provided said accident occurs outside of UK territorial waters? If, heaven forbid, there is another accident then the Maltese will be responsible.
The MAIB on call team will not need to have a bag packed and ready on the Clipper fleet's behalf. In essence SIr Robin has told the MAIB to "go forth and multiply".
Conversely the yachts might get a very, very, picky spot inspection from the MCA whilst alongside in St Kats.
Neeves
Well-known member
I'm a cynic but lacked sufficient background - but thought, vaguely, along the same lines.
Jonathan
