Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

[lw395]

That is so true. The core issue, the fact that the tether clips fail at such a low force when pulled from the side seems to have been pushed out of sight by Clipper, MAIB and MCA.
I had hoped to see all clips on sale now moved to a design which was more robust to this type of side pull.
Instead it has been suggested users should ensure this side load cannot happen - but boat decks have lots of fittings, like the mooring cleat in that case, and most MOB don’t get to choose their manner and trajectory of sudden departure!

No, the core issue is using 'fall prevention' equipment for 'fall arrest' and having a lot of people falling a lot.

 

[KellysEye]

This is an interesting article: https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2018/03/14/safety-tether-clip-caution/

 

[scotty123]

Lost in the arguments is the simple fact that a safety clip failed, of which there are demonstrably better designs used by other organisations, and as a result of this clip failure a man died.

The fact the investigating organisations might have erred is questionable - but their errors have not caused any deaths. The fact a man died, possibly prevenatable, is unforgivable.

Hiding behind - it met specification - is simply an excuse, they should be using the best kit available.

Symptomatic of the issues - they still use Delta anchors the RNLI have moved with the times, what stops Clipper.

I admire the concept, of Clipper, and think it needs all the support it can get - but that does not mean they have got it right, yet. Too may deaths in my book.

Jonathan

Mid-Ocean, does it matter which anchor?

 

[Neeves]

Oddly, or not so oddly, they use them to stem an adverse tide - its a common practice.

Other yachts, racing yachts, use Fortress and use them with success, the Volvo fleet some time ago to stem an adverse tide crossing Storm Bay, SA, and on the Vendee Globe have been used Fortress 2 or 3 times at Auckland Island (way south of NZ in the depths of the Southern Ocean). Fortress are commonly carried and though not commonly used - are used with success.

A Fortress would weigh half the weight of a Delta specified for the same yacht - which do you think is easier to handle? And if they are not much use mid ocean - why lug about the extra weight (that is inconvenient to stow).

I believe part of Clipper's induction programme, rightly, includes retrieving the anchor from the forepeak using a halyard - I'm not sure how many people are needed for deployment - but Fortress would at least be lighter. If you insist on a steel anchor - why not a Spade, Rocna or Supreme (all with Classification Society certification (as is Fortress). Which is easier to set, which is easier to handle, which is easier to stow - none of the answers would come up with Delta.

Jonathan

 

[capnsensible]

Love these threads.

Nanny state, nanny state wah wah wah.

Shouldnt be allowed shouldnt be allowed wah wah wah.



Not sure where the anchor thang is coming from though.......

 

[Blue Sunray]

Love these threads.

Nanny state, nanny state wah wah wah.

Shouldnt be allowed shouldnt be allowed wah wah wah.



Not sure where the anchor thang is coming from though.......

For my part, no objection to what they are doing, they have spotted a business opportunity and are milking it for all its worth, that's business and anyone has a right to make a profit. I just don't like some of their decisions and the marketing BS and smokescreen is a trifle irritating.

You are the only one on this thread who seems to be whining like an RAF officer who's been told that he has to walk.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

No, the core issue is using 'fall prevention' equipment for 'fall arrest' and having a lot of people falling a lot.

Indeed, as and engineer bound by CDM we are told we must prevent incidents happening as priority over making sure there is subsequent mitigation. Sailing expeditions and such ventures as Clipper use big crews to handle sails as more satisfying etc than say, roller furling on all foresails so no one goes forward in bad weather - which is what most short handed cruisers do. I take Clippers point but people died whose families expected them home so they havent got it right.

 

[capnsensible]

For my part, no objection to what they are doing, they have spotted a business opportunity and are milking it for all its worth, that's business and anyone has a right to make a profit. I just don't like some of their decisions and the marketing BS and smokescreen is a trifle irritating.

You are the only one on this thread who seems to be whining like an RAF officer who's been told that he has to walk.

Well you were clearly desperate to use yer one liner, but cmon, where on earth did you get the whining bit from?

Were you a Skimmer?

 

[Heckler]

Lost in the arguments is the simple fact that a safety clip failed, of which there are demonstrably better designs used by other organisations, and as a result of this clip failure a man died.

The fact the investigating organisations might have erred is questionable - but their errors have not caused any deaths. The fact a man died, possibly prevenatable, is unforgivable.

Hiding behind - it met specification - is simply an excuse, they should be using the best kit available.

Symptomatic of the issues - they still use Delta anchors the RNLI have moved with the times, what stops Clipper.

I admire the concept, of Clipper, and think it needs all the support it can get - but that does not mean they have got it right, yet. Too may deaths in my book.

Jonathan

Daft analogy! My mate has a new gen anchor, he always struggles to get it to set first time. We have a Delta, missus sets it first time usually and we dont drag.
So what has that got to do with it!

 

[Sandyman]

Well you were clearly desperate to use yer one liner, but cmon, where on earth did you get the whining bit from?

Were you a Skimmer?

Accused of being a Crabfat Pig lol Jack didnt bite .
Lived with the Clipper mob in RCY for 18 months. Saw all I needed to see. Things I thought I would never see. They didnt want to listen & it seems they still dont.
PMSL when i read we should be proud of what they are doing

 

[Sandyman]

Daft analogy! My mate has a new gen anchor, he always struggles to get it to set first time. We have a Delta, missus sets it first time usually and we dont drag.
So what has that got to do with it!

That statement is nothing but a pack of lies. You dont have any mates Notice he admits his missus sets the anchor

 

[capnsensible]

Accused of being a Crabfat Pig lol Jack didnt bite .
Lived with the Clipper mob in RCY for 18 months. Saw all I needed to see. Things I thought I would never see.

What happens in the showers stays in the showers...........

 

[Tintin]

Lost in the arguments is the simple fact that a safety clip failed, of which there are demonstrably better designs used by other organisations, and as a result of this clip failure a man died.

The fact the investigating organisations might have erred is questionable - but their errors have not caused any deaths. The fact a man died, possibly prevenatable, is unforgivable.

Hiding behind - it met specification - is simply an excuse, they should be using the best kit available.

Symptomatic of the issues - they still use Delta anchors the RNLI have moved with the times, what stops Clipper.

I admire the concept, of Clipper, and think it needs all the support it can get - but that does not mean they have got it right, yet. Too may deaths in my book.

Jonathan

Clipper boats rarely anchor. Nothing wrong with their choice. And the anchor and chain are stored low below as is common on other race boats.

The choice of anchor hardly damns an entire organisation, and my personal experience of Clipper is /was hugely impressed with their training, maintenance and safety culture.

Ocean racing is dangerous. Clipper IMHO do all they can to de-risk it, and I would always prefer to have a Clipper trained crew than a weekend solent sailor.

Does the RYA examinations require you to demonstrate how to handle a MOB from first alert thru to having the victim safely below decks and receiving treatment? No, but all Clipper crew learn this, and in fact a day in clipper training rarely goes by where the full procedure is not tested or run thru at least once with "Bob", a weighted clothed victim.

 

[Tintin]

Re: MAIB report seriously flawed - Clipper

Quite apart from the deaths and the grounding, this is never true. If safety really was paramount, everybody involved would stay at home - as would all sailors, climbers, horse riders, glider pilots, parachutists, cyclists and probably gardeners. Those hoes can give a nasty cut. In reality it's always a balance between safety and fun.

I think you mean "if safety was absolute", then I'd agree with you. It's about managing risk, at whatever level of sailing we all do, amd Clipper IMHO are v.good at that.

 

[[3889]]

Re: MAIB report seriously flawed - Clipper

I think you mean "if safety was absolute", then I'd agree with you. It's about managing risk, at whatever level of sailing we all do, amd Clipper IMHO are v.good at that.

I disagree and prefer JD's interpretation.
Paramount: chief in importance or impact; supreme; preeminent: a point of paramount significance. above others in rank or authority; superior in power or jurisdiction.
Not an appropriate term to use in risk assessment, nor, IMO, in other areas where complex judgement is required. It smacks of dogma.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Re: MAIB report seriously flawed - Clipper

, amd Clipper IMHO are v.good at that.

I'm sure that they will find your expert assessment rather more reassuring that than those of the MAIB and MCA of whom they are so critical, or that of the participant I met whose comments they completely ignored.

 

[bikedaft]

Re: MAIB report seriously flawed - Clipper

Hardly a "freak failure" of a clip that will fail with a sideload. It is disturbing that they use that terminology - it's plain wrong.

 

[lw395]

Oddly, or not so oddly, they use them to stem an adverse tide - its a common practice.

Other yachts, racing yachts, use Fortress and use them with success, the Volvo fleet some time ago to stem an adverse tide crossing Storm Bay, SA, and on the Vendee Globe have been used Fortress 2 or 3 times at Auckland Island (way south of NZ in the depths of the Southern Ocean). Fortress are commonly carried and though not commonly used - are used with success.

A Fortress would weigh half the weight of a Delta specified for the same yacht - which do you think is easier to handle? And if they are not much use mid ocean - why lug about the extra weight (that is inconvenient to stow).

I believe part of Clipper's induction programme, rightly, includes retrieving the anchor from the forepeak using a halyard - I'm not sure how many people are needed for deployment - but Fortress would at least be lighter. If you insist on a steel anchor - why not a Spade, Rocna or Supreme (all with Classification Society certification (as is Fortress). Which is easier to set, which is easier to handle, which is easier to stow - none of the answers would come up with Delta.

Jonathan

The whole name of the game is creating 'work' for the paying guests.
Where's the customer satisfaction in using an anchor which a lady can toss over the side with no drama?

Personally I think an anchor should be ready for quicker deployment than is implied by playing around with halyards.
Obviously there's no point in that off soundings.
We store ours below when racing but it can be got over the side PDQ.

 

[Aquaboy]

I wonder how many at the MAIB have sailed the southern ocean and have any idea what it is like. Sitting at a desk producing guide lines with the power of hindsight.......ummmm now that's a challenge

 

[Blue Sunray]

I wonder how many at the MAIB have sailed the southern ocean and have any idea what it is like. Sitting at a desk producing guide lines with the power of hindsight.......ummmm now that's a challenge

Are you really that thick, or have I just fallen for a wind up?