Buying a UK flagged boat in the EU: issues, advice and Brexit.

[ross84]

Hi all,

Seen an interesting boat in France, UK flagged.

Seller says they would meet me there. Are there any added issues of buying a UK boat in the EU? Anything to watch out for particularly?

Also, in terms of getting a survey done without the expense of flying someone out, paying for expenses etc., is it difficult to find surveyors locally who can report in English? Is the process any different to buying the boat if it were in the UK? I searched around but most results relate to buying an EU flagged boat for UK use.

Finally, is it risky buying a boat moored in the EU given the uncertainty of Brexit? (I won't have time to sail it back nor would really want to).

Any recent experience or insights about any of this will be appreciated.

Cheers!

 

[Graham376]

There's lots of info on the Liveaboard thread but hard work going through it all. I don't see anything to worry about. Basically, if you buy a UK boat based in the EU it will retain its VAT status if kept there but could lose its UK status if brought back under the new ownership - after 31/12. I would just use the standard MCA or RYA transfer of ownership document as if buying in UK.

Other will have to advise about local surveyors.

 

[ross84]

There's lots of info on the Liveaboard thread but hard work going through it all. I don't see anything to worry about. Basically, if you buy a UK boat based in the EU it will retain its VAT status if kept there but could lose its UK status if brought back under the new ownership - after 31/12. I would just use the standard MCA or RYA transfer of ownership document as if buying in UK.

Other will have to advise about local surveyors.

Wow really? If it lost its UK status, what status would it be be recognised as? This presumably would make it less attractive to UK buyers when selling it.

 

[Sea Devil]

There are several France based British surveyors around....
Have a look at the bottom of my page... http://www.michaelbriant.com/sailing.htm
one in Brittany and one near la Rochelle...
You buy exactly as you would in the UK and deal in UKPounds if possible...
After December 31st you can keep the boat in French/EU waters for as long as you like but remember you, yourself, will be subject to the 90/180 day rule so basically during the summer months you can only spend 3 months in France/EU in any 6 month period... Could change if there is a deal but at the moment under the WA you restricted to the time you can spend in France or indeed all the EU

 

[Graham376]

Wow really? If it lost its UK status, what status would it be be recognised as? This presumably would make it less attractive to UK buyers when selling it.

At the moment, to all intents and purposes, the UK and EU are one place and one customs union but all that changes on 31/12.

Lets say a boat is in Turkey now under UK ownership. The current owner can bring the boat back to the UK as Returned Goods but, if you buy it there and bring it back to UK (or EU), you will importing it so VAT due. A similar relationship will exist between the EU and UK once we leave. To get Returned Good Relief, you must be the person who took the boat out.

As far as I understand it, you can buy an EU based boat now and bring it to the UK before 31/12 under your ownership with no VAT/Duty due. You could then take it back to the EU before 31/2 and retain EU status. If in future, you then bring the boat back to the UK, you would be the person who took it out so UK VAT status retained.

I suspect there will be some very "constructive" sales documents in future to make boats appear to be where the buyer requires.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

ross84, I assume you are a UK citizen with no EU residency or citizenship. If this is the case, then the only Brexit caveat buying a boat in the EU is do it before the 31.12.2020. This ensures that you are the exporter (if in the EU then the boat will effectively be exported from the UK on the 31.12.2020 from a returning goods relief perspective - so you need to be the owner who exports it if you want to eventually bring it to the UK and avoid paying VAT a second time.)

See this thread for the reasons why .... Scenarios for UK Citizens with VAT paid boats on 31.12.2020

The primary reason is that post 31.12.2020 if a UK Union Goods (EU VAT paid) boat changes hands in the EU then the vessel no longer qualifies for UK returning goods relief because it has changed hands outside the UK. RGR states that it must be exported and imported by the same person to qualify ...

2.4 What are the conditions for relief from VAT
To be eligible for VAT RGR you must:

1. Be shown on the original export declaration as exporter and the re-import declarations as the importer.
2. The goods must be re-imported in an unaltered state, apart from any work that may have been required to maintain the goods in working order.

Any work done must not have upgraded the goods to a higher specification or increased their value.

To remain eligible for RGR the goods must not have been exported for the purpose of repair or process. However, if they are being returned unaltered, relief may be available.

1. The goods must be re-imported within 3 years of the original export

Longer periods will be considered by us on application to NIRU on the full eligibility requirements for waiver of the 3 year time limit.

Notice 236: Returned Goods Relief

If bought after 31.12.2020, it will remain VAT paid EU Union Goods but will be subject to VAT and Customs charges if the new UK owner attempts to bring it to the UK.

This is my understanding of the situation and as a disclaimer, while having negotiated the VAT/EU conundrum with my own boat, I am not a tax adviser.

 

[Graham376]

This is my understanding of the situation and as a disclaimer, while having negotiated the VAT/EU conundrum with my own boat, I am not a tax adviser.

Neither am I a tax advisor but the information I obtained from HMRC VAT import and export department helpline concurs.

One of the main problems I find is that EU advice often conflicts with UK so we just have to be careful.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Neither am I a tax advisor but the information I obtained from HMRC VAT import and export department helpline concurs.

One of the main problems I find is that EU advice often conflicts with UK so we just have to be careful.

Very true, problem with VAT and any import is that it is in the jurisdiction of the EU country where the boat resides or is imported - as such there is no overall EU single source of truth for the processes or evidence required. I dealt with Croatia, I guess Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece have different processes and different levels of pedantry from their customs officials etc. I have a complete file of invoices and owners going back to initial purchase which I needed anyway for Part 1 registry - this is my backup if I ever get investigated.

 

[ross84]

Wow, the worst aspect is not being able to live in the EU. A real dream shattered there.

Still, at least we got our freedom back!

 

[greeny]

"Freedom's just another word for nothin 'left to lose"
Sorry couldn't resist. Need to stay away from politics.

 

[Refueler]

After December 31st you can keep the boat in French/EU waters for as long as you like

I would question that .... if there's no deal - then I would expect the rule in EU to possibly revert to the old style where the car / boat / vehicle cannot remain for more than 6 months ... it must depart and be LOGGED out .... on return to EU - the last port outside EU to be declared.

But its all guesswork at this time as no-one knows what outcome of Dec 31st is yet ..

 

[Graham376]

"Freedom's just another word for nothin 'left to lose"
Sorry couldn't resist. Need to stay away from politics.

Who was Bobby McGee?

 

[Graham376]

Wow, the worst aspect is not being able to live in the EU. A real dream shattered there.

Easy to live in the EU, just get an address and apply for fiscal number and residence which takes anything from a couple of days to a few weeks, depending on how busy offices are in different towns.

 

[prv]

Easy to live in the EU, just get an address and apply for fiscal number and residence which takes anything from a couple of days to a few weeks, depending on how busy offices are in different towns.

Can someone from, to pick a random example, Haiti, do that?

Pete

 

[25931]

Can someone from, to pick a random example, Haiti, do that?

Pete

Portugal is very relaxed about "residencia" at the moment and also about the time a boat can stay but no one knows what will happen next year, only that if you obtain residencia this year you will have Shengen rights. You will certainly need an ICC.

 

[Refueler]

Can someone from, to pick a random example, Haiti, do that?

Pete

I did it ... its not the big deal so many try to make out. Of course it depends on which state you want to be in .... some are harder than others because of the immigrant / refugee situation over last years causing unrest.

 

[ross84]

I'm going to Spain soon; hopefully get can residency before 31st of December. Not sure if this will then grant me rights to live freely in the EU or just Spain? I've spoken to British colleagues and they had to renounce their UK passports to get Spanish ones, as Spain, apparently, does not allow dual citizenship.

 

[Refueler]

I'm going to Spain soon; hopefully get can residency before 31st of December. Not sure if this will then grant me rights to live freely in the EU or just Spain? I've spoken to British colleagues and they had to renounce their UK passports to get Spanish ones, as Spain, apparently, does not allow dual citizenship.

That's a problem in many countries unfortunately .... but even Russia has got rid of that ... (not suggesting Russian Passport - just showing that the most unlikely can actually do it !).

But most do not require you to take THEIR Passport ... I do not understand why so many talk about doing this. Example : Myself. I have UK Passport - actually I lost it a while back (both in the garden !) and have applied for new ... CV19 of course delaying the issue) ... but Latvian Residency lists my UK Passport .. as I renew - I visit the Latvian Office and they make copy of the new and register it ... residency continues.
I asked them what about after Dec 31st ... they seemed surprised I would ask .. but their answer was - unless something really daft happens - they don't see any change. As they said - why should it be any different to my Residency BEFORE Latvia joined EU ? All I had to do then as now - was prove I had finances to not be a burden on the state, a place to live, and I had a work skill or ability. I did not need a sponsor.
Even though I have UK Passport and NOT a Citizen - I can vote in Local Elections - my Wife cannot because Latvia refuses to give her a proper Passport - I can vote in Latvian MEP elections ..but NOT National Govt Elections. I can own land .. houses ... companys ... even have a Latvian ID Card .....

Its not only Passport ..... you may find that Driving Licence is required to change after so many months etc. Your car if UK registered may have to change unless you travel back and forth to UK with it. Thinking about UK Cars .... RHD cars were not allowed to be 'resident' here in Latvia ... 6 months and OUT !! You could not register a RHD here. But recently they changed to allow it - BUT I was told by Registration Dept - you have to fit camera to give driver view of the 'passenger' side ......

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Residency is temporary, no matter which country it is in the EU - and is dependent usually on your ability to support yourself and pay for your healthcare. If your circumstances change, or if the country you are in decides to create a hostile immigration environment for third country immigrants, then it's back to where you came from or a load of new hoops to jump through - basically, you are always vulnerable to a windrush scenario. Only citizenship - which guarantees permanent residence - gives you the same right to reside as the locals, only citizenship will remove the threat of being told to leave.

Residency is relatively easy to get because it can be revoked, retracted or expire - residency is not a panacea, and it does not guarantee a right to settle permanently in your new home - it is part of a countries immigration portfolio and as such is subject to change as political will decides. In the EU only living and working among EU member countries is guaranteed - and even that is subject to certain conditions and it can be broken by actions like Brexit. In future, Brits will be third country nationals in the EU, they will have the same rights as a Nigerian, American, Japanese or Brazilian to reside in an EU country - any political decision which affects immigration from third countries will affect Brits too.

 

[25931]

Hi all,

Seen an interesting boat in France, UK flagged.

Seller says they would meet me there. Are there any added issues of buying a UK boat in the EU? Anything to watch out for particularly?

Also, in terms of getting a survey done without the expense of flying someone out, paying for expenses etc., is it difficult to find surveyors locally who can report in English? Is the process any different to buying the boat if it were in the UK? I searched around but most results relate to buying an EU flagged boat for UK use.

Finally, is it risky buying a boat moored in the EU given the uncertainty of Brexit? (I won't have time to sail it back nor would really want to).

Any recent experience or insights about any of this will be appreciated.

Cheers!

What no one has mentioned is that to keep the boat on the SSR you must have an address in the UK which is a point to consider if you are thinking of becoming a liveaboard. You can always re-register but this can lead to a lot of (annual) beurocracy.