Buying a boat in the US

[geem]

He

The flag state of the boat says nothing about it's import status or certification, the boat could be EU goods with EU certification or under TA with no EU certification.

... generally speaking, if you use your boat in customs areas where you are not resident then certification and VAT are not an issue as everywhere has some form of TA for visiting yachts.

As soon as you want to use the boat in a customs area where you are resident, then VAT needs to have been paid, and it has to meet the certification requirements to be put into service in that customs area.

He registered in the UK once he purchased it. He just doesn't take it to the UK.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

He registered in the UK once he purchased it. He just doesn't take it to the UK.

That's fine, mine is also UK registered, and I don't take it there either.

I could, under TA, as I'm not UK resident, and it's EU goods, as it has to be because I'm EU resident.

If I moved back to the UK I could bring it in under Transfer of Residence relief, but I haven't looked into it in any detail.

 

[Beneteau381]

The flag state of the boat says nothing about it's import status or certification, the boat could be EU goods with EU certification or under TA with no EU certification.

... generally speaking, if you use your boat in customs areas where you are not resident then certification and VAT are not an issue as everywhere has some form of TA for visiting yachts.

As soon as you want to use the boat in a customs area where you are resident, then VAT needs to have been paid, and it has to meet the certification requirements to be put into service in that customs area.

Of course. But, who checks? Who cares? How many on here have actually been pulled and checked and banged up?

 

[Sea Change]

Can you find another version of the boat you already own (moody 39?)out on the other side of the pond? Transfer your stuff, sail number and ssr number and bobs yer aunty. Could make the whole thing a bit more straightforward….

Got to wonder if this kind of thing goes on. My boat wasn't built in particularly large numbers, but for something more common, it wouldn't be get hard to do for the hull itself. If there's a paper trail recording things like engine serial number, that would make it a bit harder, but for at least our boat the SSR doesn't go in to that kind of detail.

 

[Tranona]

Of course. But, who checks? Who cares? How many on here have actually been pulled and checked and banged up?

When you move from one area to another then there is a legal obligation to declare the boat. Then such things will be checked to determine the conditions of entry. Once inside a customs area there is no need for checks (unless "intelligence led") as the assumption is that the boat is legally there.

So anybody on here who has entered the EU in their boat will have been checked - but not banged up because they have complied with the law. Likewise anybody entering with their boat into the UK.

 

[geem]

When you move from one area to another then there is a legal obligation to declare the boat. Then such things will be checked to determine the conditions of entry. Once inside a customs area there is no need for checks (unless "intelligence led") as the assumption is that the boat is legally there.

So anybody on here who has entered the EU in their boat will have been checked - but not banged up because they have complied with the law. Likewise anybody entering with their boat into the UK.

I have sailed to dozens and dozens of countries and the only place we have had details of the boat checked were in Cuba. They actually wanted to see the hull serial number. I believe the only reason they wanted this detail is because so many Cuban citizens try to escape Cuba by foreign vessels. We had to report our movement at every new port. They also searched the boat pretty thoroughly. I don't believe any authority in any country is really interested in catching somebody bringing an old boat back in to the UK. It's not worth their trouble

 

[Beneteau381]

I have sailed to dozens and dozens of countries and the only place we have had details of the boat checked were in Cuba. They actually wanted to see the hull serial number. I believe the only reason they wanted this detail is because so many Cuban citizens try to escape Cuba by foreign vessels. We had to report our movement at every new port. They also searched the boat pretty thoroughly. I don't believe any authority in any country is really interested in catching somebody bringing an old boat back in to the UK. It's not worth their trouble

Exactly!

 

[Sticky Fingers]

...I don't believe any authority in any country is really interested in catching somebody bringing an old boat back in to the UK. It's not worth their trouble

It's not, that's true, but when the importing owner wants to re-sell, the broker if you use one, and any potential new owner may well find the lack of compliance a problem.

 

[Sea Change]

Trying to remember what the procedure has been so far in our travels.
We've sailed from Scotland to Ireland a few times, never had any contact with any authorities. In fact on our two trips in to the Republic, totalling about three weeks in the country, we have checked in to a marina once only, and they certainly didn't ask for anything other than money.
We did nothing at all to declare our departure from Ireland, heading south.
In Spain and possibly Portugal we did have to present passports, insurance documents, SSR, and fill out a form specifying the engine make and power.
In other countries outside of Europe, it was the standard stuff: SSR, passport, and clearance from previous port. Most places required a cruising permit where they would note a few more details including engine make.

 

[Tranona]

I have sailed to dozens and dozens of countries and the only place we have had details of the boat checked were in Cuba. They actually wanted to see the hull serial number. I believe the only reason they wanted this detail is because so many Cuban citizens try to escape Cuba by foreign vessels. We had to report our movement at every new port. They also searched the boat pretty thoroughly. I don't believe any authority in any country is really interested in catching somebody bringing an old boat back in to the UK. It's not worth their trouble

Please read what I write. I am specifically talking about the EU and the UK - no mention of any other customs areas.

Brexit created the situation of 2 different adjacent customs areas with substantial movements of goods and people between them. As a result rigorous controls have been put been place on both sides. If you lived in the UK you will know that this matter has dominated political discourse for the last 4 years and has affected the daily lives of us all.

For boats, you have to notify Border Force if you are leaving the UK (lots of threads on here about it) and report to customs when you arrive in the EU as you are entering under the EU VAT TA rules. When returning you request clearance on arrival. Much of this is now done on line (threads here on the subject) but the EU side in addition still has the requirement to physically report to customs with the boat's documents.

Similar procedure for people under the Schengen rules.

Clear now!

 

[Sea Change]

For boats, you have to notify Border Force if you are leaving the UK

We weren't sure what the deal was when we left, and didn't notify anybody about anything. We've subsequently flown in and out of the UK a few times.
I don't know if it changes anything that we left via Ireland, travelling onwards to another EU country?

 

[dunedin]

I have sailed to dozens and dozens of countries and the only place we have had details of the boat checked were in Cuba. They actually wanted to see the hull serial number. I believe the only reason they wanted this detail is because so many Cuban citizens try to escape Cuba by foreign vessels. We had to report our movement at every new port. They also searched the boat pretty thoroughly. I don't believe any authority in any country is really interested in catching somebody bringing an old boat back in to the UK. It's not worth their trouble

How many of these countries were in the EU? VAT and CE/RCD Certification are specific to Europe.

 

[Tranona]

We weren't sure what the deal was when we left, and didn't notify anybody about anything. We've subsequently flown in and out of the UK a few times.
I don't know if it changes anything that we left via Ireland, travelling onwards to another EU country?

I have posted the government guidance on the subject many times. Flying in and out is different - people not boats. With boats and people you now have to notify Border Force on the on line equivalent of the old C1338 form and return.

It is true that many boats "slipped in" pre Brexit because effectively there were no borders except for boats coming from outside the EU, which effectively meant across the Atlantic and these were usually picked up long before they arrived - at least through the Western Approaches. However further north doubt there was much scrutiny, just as boats came from the Channel Islands intermingled with all the other cross channel movements. I know at least 2 boats in Poole that came in illegally this way.

The fact remains that when geem comes back he has a legal obligation to report and as his boat is UK VAT paid status he will enter under RGR and the same if you come back with your Moody. However if you come back (even via Ireland) with a boat you bought outside the UK and has never been in the UK it will be subject to the import rules on VAT and certification. Creep in and your boat will stick out and as well as being illegal may eventually prove a big headache because you can't sell it or use it legally.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Of course. But, who checks? Who cares? How many on here have actually been pulled and checked and banged up?

Probably none, I've had paperwork checked multiple times, by marinas, by brokers, by surveyers, and by my insurance company, but it is all in order so no problems.

If the boat is purely for your own personal use then you are right, the chances of getting caught are at their highest when you first enter the country, after that, if you never leave they are almost non existent. But the law is clear, just as it is for burglary.

There are however areas of risk which all potential non compliant boat owners need to be aware of ...

There is a risk of getting caught if you ever try to sell the boat on. If you try to sell a non-certified boat then no reputable broker will touch it, and no reputable surveyer will give it a tick in the part of the survey for CE/RCD compiance. Selling the boat is illegal, and if you find a buyer, who later discovers you've sold them a non compliant boat, they can contact trading standards and get you prosecuted .... as happened in the canal boat link below. To sign a sales contract with a buyer, and sell them a non compliant boat means that in the subsequent court case you won't have a leg to stand on, and the buyer is likely to come after you when he discovers the boat you sold him is worthless or uninsurable. You could possibly avoid being prosecuted if you informed the buyer in writing that the boat was a garden ornament not intended to be put into service as a boat.

Has anyone ever been prosecuted? Yes. A few years ago a man who fitted out a boat sold it without the RCD requirements. It had a BSC. For some reason the buyer brought it to the attention of Trading Standards, who are supposed to police the scheme. It went to court, the builder pleaded ignorance and pointed out that the boat had a BSC. The court fined him £4000 with a further £5000 costs. I shouldn't think he made any profit out of that boat.

Discovered Boat has no CE Marking / need a lawyer / legal advice

There is also a risk that if and when you need to make an insurance claim, the compliance will be checked if the claim is big enough. 3rd party liability is the biggest risk as it can happen in your absence, and is required for most marinas. If your boat ever sinks and needs to be salvaged for environmental reasons, or catches fire, this can result in huge claims, which will almost certianly be contested by your insurance company when they discover your boat is not RCD compliant - a bit like modifying your car without telling them and then causing a motorway pile-up.

As with all crime, there is always the possibility of getting caught or getting away with it, but your non compliant boat becomes worthless as soon as you bring it into the country, and trying to sell it opens you up to prosecution. If you're happy with that then fine, it's your risk/reward calculation.

Be good if you didn't encourage others to do it though, as "he told me it was OK" is also a poor defence in court.

 

[Beneteau381]

I have posted the government guidance on the subject many times. Flying in and out is different - people not boats. With boats and people you now have to notify Border Force on the on line equivalent of the old C1338 form and return.

It is true that many boats "slipped in" pre Brexit because effectively there were no borders except for boats coming from outside the EU, which effectively meant across the Atlantic and these were usually picked up long before they arrived - at least through the Western Approaches. However further north doubt there was much scrutiny, just as boats came from the Channel Islands intermingled with all the other cross channel movements. I know at least 2 boats in Poole that came in illegally this way.

The fact remains that when geem comes back he has a legal obligation to report and as his boat is UK VAT paid status he will enter under RGR and the same if you come back with your Moody. However if you come back (even via Ireland) with a boat you bought outside the UK and has never been in the UK it will be subject to the import rules on VAT and certification. Creep in and your boat will stick out and as well as being illegal may eventually prove a big headache because you can't sell it or use it legally.

Sigh!

 

[geem]

How many of these countries were in the EU? VAT and CE/RCD Certification are specific to Europe.

My pal who bought his boat in Greece and flagged in the UK never got asked once about the boat as he sailed it out of Greece to the Caribbean.
Brits have a habit of wanting to obey every law to the nth degree. The French treat laws as suggestions

 

[geem]

Trying to remember what the procedure has been so far in our travels.
We've sailed from Scotland to Ireland a few times, never had any contact with any authorities. In fact on our two trips in to the Republic, totalling about three weeks in the country, we have checked in to a marina once only, and they certainly didn't ask for anything other than money.
We did nothing at all to declare our departure from Ireland, heading south.
In Spain and possibly Portugal we did have to present passports, insurance documents, SSR, and fill out a form specifying the engine make and power.
In other countries outside of Europe, it was the standard stuff: SSR, passport, and clearance from previous port. Most places required a cruising permit where they would note a few more details including engine make.

My experience as well. When we cleared in to Portugal recently, they were so laid back it was untrue. I am not one for following the rules. It's must be my French blood on my Grandmother's side

 

[benjenbav]

Probably none, I've had paperwork checked multiple times, by marinas, by brokers, by surveyers, and by my insurance company, but it is all in order so no problems.

If the boat is purely for your own personal use then you are right, the chances of getting caught are at their highest when you first enter the country, after that, if you never leave they are almost non existent. But the law is clear, just as it is for burglary.

There are however areas of risk which all potential non compliant boat owners need to be aware of ...

There is a risk of getting caught if you ever try to sell the boat on. If you try to sell a non-certified boat then no reputable broker will touch it, and no reputable surveyer will give it a tick in the part of the survey for CE/RCD compiance. Selling the boat is illegal, and if you find a buyer, who later discovers you've sold them a non compliant boat, they can contact trading standards and get you prosecuted .... as happened in the canal boat link below. To sign a sales contract with a buyer, and sell them a non compliant boat means that in the subsequent court case you won't have a leg to stand on, and the buyer is likely to come after you when he discovers the boat you sold him is worthless or uninsurable. You could possibly avoid being prosecuted if you informed the buyer in writing that the boat was a garden ornament not intended to be put into service as a boat.


Discovered Boat has no CE Marking / need a lawyer / legal advice

There is also a risk that if and when you need to make an insurance claim, the compliance will be checked if the claim is big enough. 3rd party liability is the biggest risk as it can happen in your absence, and is required for most marinas. If your boat ever sinks and needs to be salvaged for environmental reasons, or catches fire, this can result in huge claims, which will almost certianly be contested by your insurance company when they discover your boat is not RCD compliant - a bit like modifying your car without telling them and then causing a motorway pile-up.

As with all crime, there is always the possibility of getting caught or getting away with it, but your non compliant boat becomes worthless as soon as you bring it into the country, and trying to sell it opens you up to prosecution. If you're happy with that then fine, it's your risk/reward calculation.

Be good if you didn't encourage others to do it though, as "he told me it was OK" is also a poor defence in court.

I agree! Plus there are a couple of other issues.

A philosophical point that there is a social contract that we citizens accept the rule of law in return for the benefits of society. I can think of several laws that I don’t like but I’m broadly happy to observe them in return for the benefit I get from the societal provisions that I do like. For instance, I don’t especially like paying tax but I do like the availability of healthcare free from charge at the point of supply in the UK.

Separately, it’s widely believed that boats are used to bring undocumented individuals into all sorts of countries that have a coastline. Without straying into current affairs to consider the reasons behind this, we - as boat users - should hardly be surprised that border control officials will increasingly want to keep tabs on leisure vessels.

 

[Tranona]

Probably none, I've had paperwork checked multiple times, by marinas, by brokers, by surveyers, and by my insurance company, but it is all in order so no problems.

If the boat is purely for your own personal use then you are right, the chances of getting caught are at their highest when you first enter the country, after that, if you never leave they are almost non existent. But the law is clear, just as it is for burglary.

There are however areas of risk which all potential non compliant boat owners need to be aware of ...

There is a risk of getting caught if you ever try to sell the boat on. If you try to sell a non-certified boat then no reputable broker will touch it, and no reputable surveyer will give it a tick in the part of the survey for CE/RCD compiance. Selling the boat is illegal, and if you find a buyer, who later discovers you've sold them a non compliant boat, they can contact trading standards and get you prosecuted .... as happened in the canal boat link below. To sign a sales contract with a buyer, and sell them a non compliant boat means that in the subsequent court case you won't have a leg to stand on, and the buyer is likely to come after you when he discovers the boat you sold him is worthless or uninsurable. You could possibly avoid being prosecuted if you informed the buyer in writing that the boat was a garden ornament not intended to be put into service as a boat.


Discovered Boat has no CE Marking / need a lawyer / legal advice

There is also a risk that if and when you need to make an insurance claim, the compliance will be checked if the claim is big enough. 3rd party liability is the biggest risk as it can happen in your absence, and is required for most marinas. If your boat ever sinks and needs to be salvaged for environmental reasons, or catches fire, this can result in huge claims, which will almost certianly be contested by your insurance company when they discover your boat is not RCD compliant - a bit like modifying your car without telling them and then causing a motorway pile-up.

As with all crime, there is always the possibility of getting caught or getting away with it, but your non compliant boat becomes worthless as soon as you bring it into the country, and trying to sell it opens you up to prosecution. If you're happy with that then fine, it's your risk/reward calculation.

Be good if you didn't encourage others to do it though, as "he told me it was OK" is also a poor defence in court.

The responsibility for ensuring the boat has a Certificate of Conformity lies with the person or entity who first places the boat on the market NOT the owner if different. It is not an offence to either own such a boat, nor to sell it. However if the offence occurred at import or first sale Trading Standards have the option to seize the boat if it does not comply. That is the concern of subsequent buyers that in the absence of a certificate there is an outside chance that the boat might be seized. In reality I doubt this ever happens (in the UK) because Trading Standards do not routinely check anything after the boat has first entered the market.

I disagree totally about insurance - again in the UK- there is no requirement to demonstrate compliance as a condition of insurance. They are only interested in risk and as far as condition of the boat is concerned will normally rely on a survey or other evidence of seaworthiness. I know this is not the same as in some EU states with a more anal interest in bits of paper. Probably the majority of boats in thee UK do not comply with the RCD. It has little to do with safety. It is trading law brought in to provide first consistency of standards in the single market and then through the categories guidance for consumers as to the suitability of a particular boat for their needs. Never intended as an alternative to a marine survey to assess the condition of an individual boat.

The case you quote was one of several at that time and earlier when the sale of incomplete boats was still common. The original post is a clear description of what should have happened - the hull builder certifies up to the point at which he sells it and the completer finishes the boat to spec then issues the Certificate of Conformity. If the completer was the first owner and completes for his own use then there was no need to certify if he keeps the boat for at least 5 years before he sells it. This was all well publicised amongst builders at the time and the RYA actually became a certifying body to deal with these low volume or one offs as well as private imports but closed it because of lack of demand. Now just a little historical footnote as almost nobody builds in this way and those that do will do it properly.

 

[Tranona]

My pal who bought his boat in Greece and flagged in the UK never got asked once about the boat as he sailed it out of Greece to the Caribbean.
Brits have a habit of wanting to obey every law to the nth degree. The French treat laws as suggestions

Neither would he as it was either an EU status boat or non VAT paid which made it eligible for TA if it stopped in the EU - the flag has nothing to do with that. Not an example that is in any way comparable to importing a boat from outside into either the EU or the UK