Buying a boat in the US

[Tranona]

So... I sail back in to Ireland, transfer ownership to a friend who is resident in the EU, then carry on to the UK. And every 18 months I need to pop over to Ireland.

Definitely not an ideal situation. But I'm trying to come up with options in case repairing my current boat isn't viable.
I could buy another boat in the UK, but I'm not in a great hurry to repeat the mileage I've already done through orca alley. Plus, if I buy over the other side of the pond, I can transfer a lot of equipment from my old boat.

No you can't do that. Your EU "friend" would be entering the UK under TA and the rules mean it is for his personal use and it cannot be used by a UK resident.

Those who drafted these protectionist rules (the EU on the formation of the single market in 1992) are not stupid. However there was no reason why the UK needed to carry them over after Brexit - but they did because they are all Eurocrats at heart and dread the thought of first allowing anything that looks like free trade and second having to rewrite the rules when the UK almost inevitably creeps back into the EU.

 

[Sea Change]

No you can't do that. Your EU "friend" would be entering the UK under TA and the rules mean it is for his personal use and it cannot be used by a UK resident.

But my EU-resident friend wouldn't be entering the UK. He stays at home.
It's there genuinely a rule that he cannot lend his boat to a friend?

It's all getting a bit convoluted I admit. Just trying to explore possible avenues.

At the end of the day I'm talking about relatively low value boats, it seems odd that authorities would be that concerned.

Do any of these rules apply to tenders, outboards, or other high value equipment? Or would those just be lumped in with the valuation of the yacht?

 

[Tranona]

But my EU-resident friend wouldn't be entering the UK. He stays at home.
It's there genuinely a rule that he cannot lend his boat to a friend?

It's all getting a bit convoluted I admit. Just trying to explore possible avenues.

At the end of the day I'm talking about relatively low value boats, it seems odd that authorities would be that concerned.

Do any of these rules apply to tenders, outboards, or other high value equipment? Or would those just be lumped in with the valuation of the yacht?

But the boat would and for TA it is the status of the boat that counts, TA is only available to non resident owners having a boat registered outside the UK. It has to be used in the UK primarily by him

The law does not discriminate according to value. In many ways it is a stupid unnecessary law but as I keep on saying it has been so since 1992 for VAT and 1998 for certification. The TA rules were tightly written so that it was applicable to genuine tourist visitors, although as you will see there are some exceptions that allow specific use by residents with prior permission. This is the current guidance www.gov.uk/guidance/sailing-a-pleasure-craft-into-the-uk-temporarily-for-private-use

Personally I think you are chasing moonbeams. The chances of finding an old style boat outside the UK in a condition that firstly makes it feasible to get it here and second is worth refurbishing are pretty low. With a friend 25 years ago we looked at this and he went to the States to view the boats that looked so attractive and indeed it was an eye opener. If you look through the thread that baggywrinkle linked to you will find all the legislation that underpins the rules and also some other links and examples of how they are implemented. Worth digging out Tom Cunliffes YM articles on importing his boat from the US (legally) as he clearly explains why he was able to do this and why in general you can't either practically or economically. He did it twice, first with a boat he had built in Canada to RDVC standards but was several years old when he imported it and the second was a Taiwanese built Mason 43 for which all the design data was available but crucially had been re-engined with an EU certified Yanmar.

 

[st599]

But my EU-resident friend wouldn't be entering the UK. He stays at home.
It's there genuinely a rule that he cannot lend his boat to a friend?

Yes, it can only be used by the owner and his direct family. You can sail with the owner, but he can't lend it to you.

 

[Sea Change]

The chances of finding an old style boat outside the UK in a condition that firstly makes it feasible to get it here and second is worth refurbishing are pretty low.

The aim isn't to bring the boat back and sell it at a profit. The point of this is to pick up where we left off without having to start from the UK again. The obvious thing would be to sell the boat again over there rather than sail it back I suppose.

crucially had been re-engined with an EU certified Yanmar.

One of the boats in contention had a new Beta installed seven years ago, so I guess that's a good thing in more ways than one?

 

[westernman]

The aim isn't to bring the boat back and sell it at a profit. The point of this is to pick up where we left off without having to start from the UK again. The obvious thing would be to sell the boat again over there rather than sail it back I suppose.


One of the boats in contention had a new Beta installed seven years ago, so I guess that's a good thing in more ways than one?

Only if it has a plaque and serial number which links it to an EU certificate.
Many marine engine manufacturers have essentially the same engine for sale in the US with US certification but not EU certification.

It is likely to be a major PITA even if it is exactly the same engine with exactly the same ECU programmed with the same fuel map if the documentation does not show it has EU certification.
Even if you do not have to change the engine (for one almost identical), you will end up spending a lot of money with experts try to create the necessary paper trail.

 

[Sea Change]

Only if it has a plaque and serial number which links it to an EU certificate.
Many marine engine manufacturers have essentially the same engine for sale in the US with US certification but not EU certification.

It is likely to be a major PITA even if it is exactly the same engine with exactly the same ECU programmed with the same fuel map if the documentation does not show it has EU certification.
Even if you do not have to change the engine (for one almost identical), you will end up spending a lot of money with experts try to create the necessary paper trail.

In this case the engine was fitted in the Netherlands. And the boat was built in France. So I'm probably ok....?

 

[westernman]

In this case the engine was fitted in the Netherlands. And the boat was built in France. So I'm probably ok....?

Seems to be likely. But you will need to be able to prove that the engine is compliant.
So get a photo of all the plaques on the engine and try and get written confirmation from Beta.

 

[wonkywinch]

A big transformer doesn’t cost that much

It's not that simple. US sockets and wiring is different. The two power pins on a US socket float with respect to ground/earth. There is 110v across the pins but only c 55v between each one and earth. In the UK, the neutral is at earth potential so the live is the full (in this case 240v) wrt earth.

The boat would have to be rewired to meet UK regs.

Unless your boat remains a little US style capsule powered via a 110v site transformer.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

In this case the engine was fitted in the Netherlands. And the boat was built in France. So I'm probably ok....?

If you don't bring the boat back to Europe / UK then there would be nothing stopping you using it as is in the Caribbean and US or even further afield, you could even register it in the UK, the problems only arise when you bring it across the pond and as you have just said in post #45 the aim is to pick up where you left off then there is no problem.

 

[Sea Change]

Another thought... I'm a dual Irish/UK citizen, but a resident of the UK.
If I sail back across the pond and check in to Ireland, what problems might I encounter further down the line? Would I have to lose my status as a UK resident to avoid having to import the boat in to the UK?

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Another thought... I'm a dual Irish/UK citizen, but a resident of the UK.
If I sail back across the pond and check in to Ireland, what problems might I encounter further down the line? Would I have to lose my status as a UK resident to avoid having to import the boat in to the UK?

You would have to lose your residency status.

 

[dunedin]

Another thought... I'm a dual Irish/UK citizen, but a resident of the UK.
If I sail back across the pond and check in to Ireland, what problems might I encounter further down the line? Would I have to lose my status as a UK resident to avoid having to import the boat in to the UK?

If you became Irish resident you couldn't use temporary import into Ireland, so need to pay EU VAT and ensure RCD compliance.
Whichever way you try to skin it, if buy in USA a non current CE boat it would be an expensive pain bringing back to Europe. Just sail it and sell it again there.
Or getting close to milk run time. Get another boat this side of the pond and meander over again with the annual flotilla

 

[Sea Change]

If you became Irish resident you couldn't use temporary import into Ireland, so need to pay EU VAT and ensure RCD compliance.
Whichever way you try to skin it, if buy in USA a non current CE boat it would be an expensive pain bringing back to Europe. Just sail it and sell it again there.
Or getting close to milk run time. Get another boat this side of the pond and meander over again with the annual flotilla

Sorry my musings have taken a whole lot of different twists and turns.
I'm currently considering two different boats, one is a Westerly in the USA, the other is a Gibsea in the Dutch islands, EU VAT paid.

 

[st599]

Sorry my musings have taken a whole lot of different twists and turns.
I'm currently considering two different boats, one is a Westerly in the USA, the other is a Gibsea in the Dutch islands, EU VAT paid.

Wouldn't the EU VAT status change when you bought it? You didn't export it so can't claim returned goods relief

 

[Sea Change]

Wouldn't the EU VAT status change when you bought it? You didn't export it so can't claim returned goods relief

Would that happen because the transaction happened outside of the EU?

 

[Beneteau381]

Yes and yes, I suspect it will be the certification that would be the back breaker as almost certainly it would be a new engine. The vat and import duty would be on value either assessed or the purchase price.

Or you could do what was done a few years ago. Sail a Jeanneau from the Carib to Holyhead, pay for a berth there. Leave it a couple of years there then flog it. The new owner came to clean it out. It still had Carib small money on it. No vat etc paid. I asked!

It's not that simple. US sockets and wiring is different. The two power pins on a US socket float with respect to ground/earth. There is 110v across the pins but only c 55v between each one and earth. In the UK, the neutral is at earth potential so the live is the full (in this case 240v) wrt earth.

The boat would have to be rewired to meet UK regs.

Unless your boat remains a little US style capsule powered via a 110v site transformer.

i worked in Africa and the Middle East in the oilfield. I built oil field camps amongst other things. American gear. I am more than au fait with the American 110 volt system.
Why would the boat have to be rewired to meet UK regs?
Why shouldn’t it be a little US capsule for the battery charger and water heater and hook a garage consumer unit in to run a simple ring main for 240 volt Brit stuff?
My Beneteau is essentially run on a simple garage type consumer unit system with simple ring main and two breakers, one for the water heater and one for the battery charger. The pontoon feed is only 16 amps, just a little bit more than a 3 pin plug!
It’s not rocket science.
Someone like Paul Rainbow would soon sort it!

 

[Minerva]

So... I sail back in to Ireland, transfer ownership to a friend who is resident in the EU, then carry on to the UK. And every 18 months I need to pop over to Ireland.

Definitely not an ideal situation. But I'm trying to come up with options in case repairing my current boat isn't viable.
I could buy another boat in the UK, but I'm not in a great hurry to repeat the mileage I've already done through orca alley. Plus, if I buy over the other side of the pond, I can transfer a lot of equipment from my old boat.

Can you find another version of the boat you already own (moody 39?)out on the other side of the pond? Transfer your stuff, sail number and ssr number and bobs yer aunty. Could make the whole thing a bit more straightforward….

 

[geem]

If you don't bring the boat back to Europe / UK then there would be nothing stopping you using it as is in the Caribbean and US or even further afield, you could even register it in the UK, the problems only arise when you bring it across the pond and as you have just said in post #45 the aim is to pick up where you left off then there is no problem.

I have a friend who did just that. He bought an American flagged boat in Greece. He sailed it to the Caribbean. The boat is currently in Ireland. He doesn't bring it back to the UK. They are liveaboards. It works

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I have a friend who did just that. He bought an American flagged boat in Greece. He sailed it to the Caribbean. The boat is currently in Ireland. He doesn't bring it back to the UK. They are liveaboards. It works

The flag state of the boat says nothing about it's import status or certification, the boat could be EU goods with EU certification or under TA with no EU certification.

... generally speaking, if you use your boat in customs areas where you are not resident then certification and VAT are not an issue as everywhere has some form of TA for visiting yachts.

As soon as you want to use the boat in a customs area where you are resident, then VAT needs to have been paid, and it has to meet the certification requirements to be put into service in that customs area.