Buying a boat in Norway... Looking for a surveyor -

[thvoyager]

What if the yacht in question is older than say 1985, or 1980, are there any exemptions for boats of certain ages?

 

[westernman]

What if the yacht in question is older than say 1985, or 1980, are there any exemptions for boats of certain ages?

Yes, if you keep the boat in the EEA or EU.
But no, not if you are importing it into the UK.

These are the rules which have always existed - and why importing an oldish boat from the USA into the EU was fraught with expensive RCD issues.

Now the UK is no longer in the EEA/EU, it is applying the rules which existed before to third countries which now include Norway and the whole of the EU.

You should have done this a few years ago.

But seriously, if you want to keep a boat in the UK, buy one in the UK.
If you want to keep it in the EU, buy one already in the EU which is fully VAT paid etc.

 

[Tranona]

What if the yacht in question is older than say 1985, or 1980, are there any exemptions for boats of certain ages?

In the UK no. In Europe yes - if the boat was built in the EEA or in use in the EEA then it does not need certification.

Hope you are getting the message that importing an old boat from Norway into the UK is not viable.

 

[ylop]

But with that said, let's say I go Norway, I see the boat, do my due diligence (I am currently binge watching boat survey related videos but know 100% that it is no substitute for decades in the industry - but I am acquiring knowledge), let's say I strike a deal with the owner to give me 14 days (maybe a small deposit paid to hold is normal??) , and then maybe I get a surveyor to do a survey and it comes back clean... so far so good.

in the UK if buying via a broker it would be normal to pay 10% of the price to the broker if you are making an offer subject to survey. You want to be very clear if doing that sort of thing elsewhere (and in the UK - but the normal practices are well established here) (1) where the money is kept (2) what happens if the survey says something bad - can you walk away and get money back (and is there any measure of how bad) (3) any other conditions such as a test sail, or what if the surveyor says you should get the engine inspected by a mechanic or the rigging reviewed by a rigger etc. You need to be clear who pays any yard fees -e.g. to lift the boat for survey or slip for test sail. Knowing that everything costs a lot in Norway, I would expect you to be the wrong side of £1000 for survey costs. I wouldn't be amazed if it was double that. You might have extra complications because your UK insurer will almost certainly want a surveyor accredited to a body they know and trust. Your professional skipper is going to charge nicely for the journey too. Assuming they sailed directly across the North Sea, I'd expect them to bring a "mate" to share the watches (no way I'd trust the newbie owner with no experience doing night watches in the North Sea alone), so you are looking at 2x travel, 2x delivery crew fees. I'd expect him to go round the boat before he leaves and find things which need fixing/replacing before he risks his life sailing it. You won't have time to wait for bargain internet purchases so expect to spend perhaps a grand or more in the local chandlers unless the boat is really in perfect shape. I'm guessing you'll be paying for a week's time even if the crossing only takes a couple of days (where in the UK does it need to get to - you might take another week to move the boat within the UK) because they will be available for it waiting for a weather window - so even cheap skippers that trip is going to cost you £4K+? Add in VAT and even without RCD costs UK boats start to look not quite so ridiculous and a lot less hassle.

Now I decide to get it chartered back and moor it up in the UK for say 6 months, insurance paid and survey of boat was done in August 2021..

Confused you you are time travelling?

Now during which time I am off to Greece or Croatia to work, do an intensive sailing course and work. Come back in Spring and get boat and go sailing (my plan is to live aboard, travel and work in the EU and when needed dip out of the EU for Brexit reasons!

ok you understand the 90/180 rules for UK citizens (assuming not an EU passport holder?) and that you cannot work when in the EU?

So, getting the boat from Norway to UK initially, there is no reason why I can't just bring it back for a set time? If I don't register the boat or pay vat, or even inform HMRC, what is the issue, without sounding like a petty criminal, no one will know will they..? Just get it moored up and do my thing.

you'll need insurance to moor it most places. Insurers will want a survey - survey may highlight RCD compliance issues! You may well have to declare to the insurer details that would alert them to the problem if you are honest - add insurance fraud to your tax evasion and trading standards import offences risks!
Now, I wouldn't trust my new pride an joy to any professional skipper that wasn't going to do this by the book. I don't know why a skipper would risk their freedom for your benefit so I would expect any professional skipper bringing a boat from Norway to raise a Q flag when they arrive in UK waters and call HMRC (having done all the pre-reporting paperwork online too).

I have no allegiance to a corrupt, failing / failed government and the less money they can steal off me the better, there I said it.

I'd read the sticky at the top of the forums. Your politics, and even your morality of whether paying taxes is a good idea or not are irrelevant. If you get upset by paying loosely justified costs to arbitrary officialdom, I certainly wouldn't take a boat outside the UK!

If I can save myself £10,000 on a new engine that is not needed and £3000 on VAT and £2000 on iso this and iso that then I am all for it.
This does not mean I don't want a safe vessel for myself and other sea goers. I very much do, but I can't stand bureaucracy and unnecessary protocols. Or is this what sailing is?

No that's not what sailing is. It's what importing/exporting is.

People buy old boats all the time, and live on them, do fun things, sail them.... Is this just the UK which is being a bit** or is it the whole world?! If it is the former, the see ya later behind the times UK!!

Its certainly become harder in the UK if you want to do things internationally since Brexit, but for "domestic" purchases and "domestic" use we have probably the lowest admin of any country in the world for boat ownership or use. Go to some European countries and there will be paperwork nonsense every new port you go to; officials wanting to inspect your safety equipment and check your papers; etc. Go to the USA and some states I believe charge an annual tax on boat owners. Try to import an EU boat to the US as a private individual and you will have a heap of pain.

What if the yacht in question is older than say 1985, or 1980, are there any exemptions for boats of certain ages?

There are - but for boats that were already in the UK before the cut off dates. Your issue is you want to import a boat and the rules treat that the same as making a new boat in the far east to dodgy standards.

 

[westernman]

Its certainly become harder in the UK if you want to do things internationally since Brexit, but for "domestic" purchases and "domestic" use we have probably the lowest admin of any country in the world for boat ownership or use.

Bang on.

And the rest of your post as well.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

A lot of good info to go on here, and I appreciate every angle and aspect of it all.

I will definitely get to grip with the technicals and the legals, given that I want to be sailing for the foreseeable.

But with that said, let's say I go Norway, I see the boat, do my due diligence (I am currently binge watching boat survey related videos but know 100% that it is no substitute for decades in the industry - but I am acquiring knowledge), let's say I strike a deal with the owner to give me 14 days (maybe a small deposit paid to hold is normal??) , and then maybe I get a surveyor to do a survey and it comes back clean... so far so good.

Now I decide to get it chartered back and moor it up in the UK for say 6 months, insurance paid and survey of boat was done in August 2021.. Now during which time I am off to Greece or Croatia to work, do an intensive sailing course and work. Come back in Spring and get boat and go sailing (my plan is to live aboard, travel and work in the EU and when needed dip out of the EU for Brexit reasons!

So, getting the boat from Norway to UK initially, there is no reason why I can't just bring it back for a set time? If I don't register the boat or pay vat, or even inform HMRC, what is the issue, without sounding like a petty criminal, no one will know will they..? Just get it moored up and do my thing. I have no allegiance to a corrupt, failing / failed government and the less money they can steal off me the better, there I said it.

If I can save myself £10,000 on a new engine that is not needed and £3000 on VAT and £2000 on iso this and iso that then I am all for it.
This does not mean I don't want a safe vessel for myself and other sea goers. I very much do, but I can't stand bureaucracy and unnecessary protocols. Or is this what sailing is?

I can recommend Adriatic Nautical Academy in Murter (Croatia, near Split).

 

[thvoyager]

in the UK if buying via a broker it would be normal to pay 10% of the price to the broker if you are making an offer subject to survey. You want to be very clear if doing that sort of thing elsewhere (and in the UK - but the normal practices are well established here) (1) where the money is kept (2) what happens if the survey says something bad - can you walk away and get money back (and is there any measure of how bad) (3) any other conditions such as a test sail, or what if the surveyor says you should get the engine inspected by a mechanic or the rigging reviewed by a rigger etc. You need to be clear who pays any yard fees -e.g. to lift the boat for survey or slip for test sail. Knowing that everything costs a lot in Norway, I would expect you to be the wrong side of £1000 for survey costs. I wouldn't be amazed if it was double that. You might have extra complications because your UK insurer will almost certainly want a surveyor accredited to a body they know and trust. Your professional skipper is going to charge nicely for the journey too. Assuming they sailed directly across the North Sea, I'd expect them to bring a "mate" to share the watches (no way I'd trust the newbie owner with no experience doing night watches in the North Sea alone), so you are looking at 2x travel, 2x delivery crew fees. I'd expect him to go round the boat before he leaves and find things which need fixing/replacing before he risks his life sailing it. You won't have time to wait for bargain internet purchases so expect to spend perhaps a grand or more in the local chandlers unless the boat is really in perfect shape. I'm guessing you'll be paying for a week's time even if the crossing only takes a couple of days (where in the UK does it need to get to - you might take another week to move the boat within the UK) because they will be available for it waiting for a weather window - so even cheap skippers that trip is going to cost you £4K+? Add in VAT and even without RCD costs UK boats start to look not quite so ridiculous and a lot less hassle.

Confused you you are time travelling?
ok you understand the 90/180 rules for UK citizens (assuming not an EU passport holder?) and that you cannot work when in the EU?

you'll need insurance to moor it most places. Insurers will want a survey - survey may highlight RCD compliance issues! You may well have to declare to the insurer details that would alert them to the problem if you are honest - add insurance fraud to your tax evasion and trading standards import offences risks!
Now, I wouldn't trust my new pride an joy to any professional skipper that wasn't going to do this by the book. I don't know why a skipper would risk their freedom for your benefit so I would expect any professional skipper bringing a boat from Norway to raise a Q flag when they arrive in UK waters and call HMRC (having done all the pre-reporting paperwork online too).

I'd read the sticky at the top of the forums. Your politics, and even your morality of whether paying taxes is a good idea or not are irrelevant. If you get upset by paying loosely justified costs to arbitrary officialdom, I certainly wouldn't take a boat outside the UK!

No that's not what sailing is. It's what importing/exporting is.


Its certainly become harder in the UK if you want to do things internationally since Brexit, but for "domestic" purchases and "domestic" use we have probably the lowest admin of any country in the world for boat ownership or use. Go to some European countries and there will be paperwork nonsense every new port you go to; officials wanting to inspect your safety equipment and check your papers; etc. Go to the USA and some states I believe charge an annual tax on boat owners. Try to import an EU boat to the US as a private individual and you will have a heap of pain.


There are - but for boats that were already in the UK before the cut off dates. Your issue is you want to import a boat and the rules treat that the same as making a new boat in the far east to dodgy standards.

Thanks for you insight, I do admit I am /was a little naive here.
I think one big thing to solve this issue is to not bring the boat back to the UK! Or yes, just buy a boat in the UK. But I have not seen a boat that I like in the UK yet, most of them also SEEMED overpriced, but now with this new insight I see what the market us trying to tell me. Pavements (or pontoons) are indeed not lined with gold.

Wow what a headfu**. I need to do some serious consideration. I had residency in Cyprus last year but gave it up, was only there for 11 months, and if you leave before I think 2 years you lose your temp residency after 6 months, I may try to to the same in an EU country.
Anyway thanks for the info, I need to do some careful thinking.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

I had residency in Cyprus last year but gave it up, was only there for 11 months, and if you leave before I think 2 years you lose your temp residency after 6 months, I may try to to the same in an EU country.

A final thing to be aware of... if you have a UK VAT paid and certified boat and are not a resident of an EU country (i.e. you are a resident of the UK for example) you can take your boat to any EU country for 18 months under the Temporary Admission scheme. After 18 months the boat has to leave the EU for only 1 day to restart a new 18 months. However, this scheme is not available to any resident of any EU country.

 

[thvoyager]

A final thing to be aware of... if you have a UK VAT paid and certified boat and are not a resident of an EU country (i.e. you are a resident of the UK for example) you can take your boat to any EU country for 18 months under the Temporary Admission scheme. After 18 months the boat has to leave the EU for only 1 day to restart a new 18 months. However, this scheme is not available to any resident of any EU country.

Well that is a little bit of a silver lining on what has been a bombshell of information.

 

[Momac]

In addition to the VAT/import duty thing is a UKCA assessment required if importing a boat into the UK even if that boat is CE marked?

 

[AngusMcDoon]

In addition to the VAT/import duty thing is a UKCA assessment required if importing a boat into the UK even if that boat is CE marked?

My understanding is no until 1/1/2023, then yes.

 

[Momac]

My understanding is no until 1/1/2023, then yes.

Not long then.
Further cost to add to importing a boat unless it is relaxed for used boats that are CE marked (which would be sensible).

 

[Star-Lord]

Norway is not in the EU. So that's a whole other world of pain if the OP wants, or thinks s/he wants, to take the boat to the EU.

Ah! Well Netherlands, and France could be an option then

 

[Star-Lord]

No, you can do it in the UK and all over Europe - people have been doing it for years. However it is becoming increasingly difficult because, particularly in the UK it is becoming difficult or extremely expensive to find berths that will accept liveaboards. For UK based people Europe is now no longer open for free movement and employment, so what was quite normal pre Brexit is no longer viable. Leaving aside the political issues buying an old boat and living aboard is not as "cheap" as it was. Old hands like me remember the happy old days 20+ years ago when you could wander round the Med full time on a fraction of the budget of living on land in the UK, working when you needed to top up the cruising fund. Now Europe, leaving aside the restrictions is far more expensive than living in the UK.

As for buying old boats in general, many find out pretty quickly that the amount of work and money required far exceeds their expectations which is why you see part finished projects languishing in yards unloved and racking up storage charges while the owner desperately tries to find the next dreamer to take it off his hands.

I think living in Europe is cheaper than the UK. Berths and ‘living aboard’ is not a problem anywhere in Europe that I have so far encountered. Obv Brexit spoiled it for most. But still easy to do the Schengen shuffle if you are determined to carry on.

 

[thvoyager]

Norway is not in the EU. So that's a whole other world of pain if the OP wants, or thinks s/he wants, to take the boat to the EU.

Oh dear, just sen this, what issues will a Norwegian boat have in EU?

 

[westernman]

Oh dear, just sen this, what issues will a Norwegian boat have in EU?

If owned by an EU resident, VAT (and import duty???) will have to be paid as soon as it arrives in the EU.

Otherwise no issues as the certification requirements (which include RCD II for new builds and imports from third countries) apply to the EU and EEA as a single unit. Norway is in the EEA so as far as certification is concerned it is as if it was already in the EU.

 

[thvoyager]

If owned by an EU resident, VAT (and import duty???) will have to be paid as soon as it arrives in the EU.

Otherwise no issues as the certification requirements (which include RCD II for new builds and imports from third countries) apply to the EU and EEA as a single unit. Norway is in the EEA so as far as certification is concerned it is as if it was already in the EU.

Sorry folks this is dragging on...

But what if a UK resident buys boat in Norway, then sales to med/EU, I would have to pay VAT as soon as it arrives, then if I sail it to UK, also pay VAT?
Or would i get some time like the 18 months in the EU na skip a day out of EU and back for 18 months...
Surely I won't be paying VAT every frickin time it goes in and out... This is making boat ownership and living aboard seem absurd!

 

[westernman]

Sorry folks this is dragging on...

But what if a UK resident buys boat in Norway, then sales to med/EU, I would have to pay VAT as soon as it arrives, then if I sail it to UK, also pay VAT?
Or would i get some time like the 18 months in the EU na skip a day out of EU and back for 18 months...
Surely I won't be paying VAT every frickin time it goes in and out... This is making boat ownership and living aboard seem absurd!

If you are UK resident, then no problem sailing to the med/EU.
You are not importing it. You get to leave it in the EU for up to 18 months before have to leave the EU for a day.
Just make sure the documentation is reasonably water tight.

What you must never ever do, is go anywhere near the UK.
If you do that the boat has to be imported. You will pay VAT (I think the import duty is 0%), And the boat has to confirm to the latest UKCA rules for boats. Currently the UKCA rules are the same as RCD II. But a boat built in 1980 won't conform. Probably the biggest issue will be the exhaust emissions of the engine which will require the installation of a modern engine. They may be other issues as well if VAT and a new engine to not put you off enough!!!

 

[st599]

Sorry folks this is dragging on...

But what if a UK resident buys boat in Norway, then sales to med/EU, I would have to pay VAT as soon as it arrives, then if I sail it to UK, also pay VAT?
Or would i get some time like the 18 months in the EU na skip a day out of EU and back for 18 months...
Surely I won't be paying VAT every frickin time it goes in and out... This is making boat ownership and living aboard seem absurd!

The boat gets 18 months in the EU, but you don't, you get 90 days in a rolling 180. At the moment it's done on passport stamps, but from next year it's biometric and automated.

If you take up residency to stay longer, an EU resident can't temporarily import a yacht and VAT is due.

 

[dunedin]

Yes, we have created a nightmare of complexity that didn’t exist 3 years ago. Happy days!

If the OP can get EU residency and buy a boat in the EU then the boat/VAT and person/Schengen issues would go away.
Could even sail to the UK for up to 18 months without VAT issues