Buying a boat in Norway... Looking for a surveyor -

[thvoyager]

No RCD required ..you don’t need to change your engine.You do need to pay VAT but register the boat in the UK before and nobody is going to give a monkeys elbow.

Register the boat in the UK before? Not following here?

 

[Tranona]

Registration has nothing to do with importing the boat, and despite what this poster says from 1 Jan 2023 an imported boat will need to comply with current standards which require going through a process that is expected to cost between £5-8000. A 1980 boat would have huge difficulty in meeting the standards.

I think what this poster is saying is ignore the law on imports and just register the boat (so it is a British ship) and sail it to the UK as you won't get caught. The flaw is that if you partly comply by paying VAT you will be asked for certification.

Ignoring the legalities you should consider carefully the cost and practicality of buying a cheap 40 year old boat and sailing it back to the UK. Your proposed plan in your first post is totally unrealistic.

 

[thvoyager]

Registration has nothing to do with importing the boat, and despite what this poster says from 1 Jan 2023 an imported boat will need to comply with current standards which require going through a process that is expected to cost between £5-8000. A 1980 boat would have huge difficulty in meeting the standards.

I think what this poster is saying is ignore the law on imports and just register the boat (so it is a British ship) and sail it to the UK as you won't get caught. The flaw is that if you partly comply by paying VAT you will be asked for certification.

Ignoring the legalities you should consider carefully the cost and practicality of buying a cheap 40 year old boat and sailing it back to the UK. Your proposed plan in your first post is totally unrealistic.

OK so register it before it is sailed across and don't pay the VAT? Not asking for advice - just your knowledge and opinion
To be honest with you the less money I can give to this corrupt government the better (I don't even think there is a standing government currently anyway!)

 

[Wansworth]

All these governing bodies being busy bodies and just doing absolutely nothing productive!
I am sure the environmental impacts of mining metal for a new engine, shipping that metal 3 times around the world and then shipping to the uk as well as all the factories and other negative effects is a lot worse than what a a freshly serviced engine will produce!
Green New Deal is a scam.

Who said common sense had any part?

 

[ylop]

I think what this poster is saying is ignore the law on imports and just register the boat (so it is a British ship) and sail it to the UK as you won't get caught. The flaw is that if you partly comply by paying VAT you will be asked for certification.

Do we know for sure that HMRC ask for RCD certification? Its not really their remit - its a trading standards matter. Its remarkably joined up of them to do this.

I suspect there's a very high %age chance that the OP could go buy the boat and smuggle it back here (no point gilding the lily - what Whiterose is encouraging him to do is smuggling) and never get caught - I don't know anyone who has been asked to prove either to UK officials during routine ownership. However, he would face some potential issues when he came to sell the boat in the future an informed buyer is going to ask for proof of VAT status (and probably knock 20% off if its not available) and then when the chain of ownership shows it was imported start asking RCD UKCA questions. Certainly might make hard to use a broker and I expect it becomes a "Gumtree" or FB Marketplace sale.

The other time it could get very messy is if there was an insurance claim. We know insurers love to take our premiums but are not so keen to pay out. A boat which was smuggled in to avoid the UK RCD "safety" standard sounds like a good excuse not to pay out to me!

All these governing bodies being busy bodies and just doing absolutely nothing productive!
I am sure the environmental impacts of mining metal for a new engine, shipping that metal 3 times around the world and then shipping to the uk as well as all the factories and other negative effects is a lot worse than what a a freshly serviced engine will produce!
Green New Deal is a scam.

You can moan all you like but nobody here is in a position to change the rules. You'd be better using your time productively to understand them than bitch about them. For what it is worth, the idea behind things like the RCD isn't to be a magic standard that makes all boats better it was to ensure there was a level playing field for all countries and stop individual countries inventing and imposing weird standards of their own which lock out foreign competition. The quid-pro-quo is that if we impose these rules on our "indigenous" producers and distributors they understandably want to make sure that there isn't some sneaky grey import route for slightly inferior (and cheaper) goods from elsewhere.

 

[Wansworth]

You have two alternatives buy the boat and forever be a stranger toUK waters or comply with UK Regs to import …or look fora boat already in thUK ,there must be a boat that fulfills your needs,look harder,unless it’s a nice Colin Archer?

 

[Tranona]

Do we know for sure that HMRC ask for RCD certification? Its not really their remit - its a trading standards matter. Its remarkably joined up of them to do this.

I suspect there's a very high %age chance that the OP could go buy the boat and smuggle it back here (no point gilding the lily - what Whiterose is encouraging him to do is smuggling) and never get caught - I don't know anyone who has been asked to prove either to UK officials during routine ownership. However, he would face some potential issues when he came to sell the boat in the future an informed buyer is going to ask for proof of VAT status (and probably knock 20% off if its not available) and then when the chain of ownership shows it was imported start asking RCD UKCA questions. Certainly might make hard to use a broker and I expect it becomes a "Gumtree" or FB Marketplace sale.

The other time it could get very messy is if there was an insurance claim. We know insurers love to take our premiums but are not so keen to pay out. A boat which was smuggled in to avoid the UK RCD "safety" standard sounds like a good excuse not to pay out to me!

You are right that certification enforcement is Trading Standards remit and no doubt people ignored it in the past, for example importing boats from the US, but as you rightly say failing to certify (or pay VAT) apart from being a criminal offence just stores up problems for the future. With the heightened security on our borders, the changes of "slipping in" are much reduced compared with the past. Depends on ones attitude to risk, but the downsides of a criminal record and loss of boat might cause one to think again!

Leaving that aside, there has always been interest in buying boats in Scandinavia as old style boats are indeed very cheap there because nobody locally wants them. They are often in good condition because they are stored for over half of the year. However once one really looks at the practicalities of say paying £8k for something like an IF that would be £15k in the UK you quickly find, even in the single market days the difference disappears rapidly in costs of visiting to view and buy (OPs doing it all from scratch as a beginner in 3 days is just not doable), paying storage over the winter, preparing the boat for a long voyage across the North Sea, engaging a professional skipper to help and so on. Works with big expensive boats - one of our club members bought a Windy in Sweden and brought it back by himself coast hugging and saved a lot of money. But these sort of situations are unusual and do not stack up for cheap old boats.

 

[thvoyager]

A lot of good info to go on here, and I appreciate every angle and aspect of it all.

I will definitely get to grip with the technicals and the legals, given that I want to be sailing for the foreseeable.

But with that said, let's say I go Norway, I see the boat, do my due diligence (I am currently binge watching boat survey related videos but know 100% that it is no substitute for decades in the industry - but I am acquiring knowledge), let's say I strike a deal with the owner to give me 14 days (maybe a small deposit paid to hold is normal??) , and then maybe I get a surveyor to do a survey and it comes back clean... so far so good.

Now I decide to get it chartered back and moor it up in the UK for say 6 months, insurance paid and survey of boat was done in August 2021.. Now during which time I am off to Greece or Croatia to work, do an intensive sailing course and work. Come back in Spring and get boat and go sailing (my plan is to live aboard, travel and work in the EU and when needed dip out of the EU for Brexit reasons!

So, getting the boat from Norway to UK initially, there is no reason why I can't just bring it back for a set time? If I don't register the boat or pay vat, or even inform HMRC, what is the issue, without sounding like a petty criminal, no one will know will they..? Just get it moored up and do my thing. I have no allegiance to a corrupt, failing / failed government and the less money they can steal off me the better, there I said it.

If I can save myself £10,000 on a new engine that is not needed and £3000 on VAT and £2000 on iso this and iso that then I am all for it.
This does not mean I don't want a safe vessel for myself and other sea goers. I very much do, but I can't stand bureaucracy and unnecessary protocols. Or is this what sailing is?

 

[Hacker]

As @Tranona said above, it’s all about your appetite for risk. You could get away with it or you could end in court, your call.

 

[Tranona]

A lot of good info to go on here, and I appreciate every angle and aspect of it all.

I will definitely get to grip with the technicals and the legals, given that I want to be sailing for the foreseeable.

But with that said, let's say I go Norway, I see the boat, do my due diligence (I am currently binge watching boat survey related videos but know 100% that it is no substitute for decades in the industry - but I am acquiring knowledge), let's say I strike a deal with the owner to give me 14 days (maybe a small deposit paid to hold is normal??) , and then maybe I get a surveyor to do a survey and it comes back clean... so far so good.

Now I decide to get it chartered back and moor it up in the UK for say 6 months, insurance paid and survey of boat was done in August 2021.. Now during which time I am off to Greece or Croatia to work, do an intensive sailing course and work. Come back in Spring and get boat and go sailing (my plan is to live aboard, travel and work in the EU and when needed dip out of the EU for Brexit reasons!

So, getting the boat from Norway to UK initially, there is no reason why I can't just bring it back for a set time? If I don't register the boat or pay vat, or even inform HMRC, what is the issue, without sounding like a petty criminal, no one will know will they..? Just get it moored up and do my thing. I have no allegiance to a corrupt, failing / failed government and the less money they can steal off me the better, there I said it.

If I can save myself £10,000 on a new engine that is not needed and £3000 on VAT and £2000 on iso this and iso that then I am all for it.
This does not mean I don't want a safe vessel for myself and other sea goers. I very much do, but I can't stand bureaucracy and unnecessary protocols. Or is this what sailing is?

Absolutely NOT. VAT is due the day you enter the UK. You are required to follow the reporting procedure here www.gov.uk/guidance/sailing-a-pleasure-craft-that-is-arriving-in-the-uk and Customs here www.gov.uk/government/collections/custom-rules-for-sailing-your-pleasure-craft-to-from-and-within-uk-waters

Why do you think that the UK government would allow you as a resident to keep a boat in the UK without paying the appropriate taxes and meeting the required regulations?.

Once you have read that you will see there is no "escape". This is the law of the land and failing to comply is a criminal offence.

As I wrote earlier, many people like you see "cheap" boats in other countries and imagine there are huge savings to be made - it is illusory, because if it were true "everybody" would be doing it (like booze cruises 20 years ago) - but they aren't. Even ignoring the new customs barriers, if were viable, the prices there would rise as people rushed to snap up these "bargains - but they don't. The boats are cheap because the price is dictated by the market and the only viable market is where they are located.

On a more general not on buying old cheap boats. The cost of the boat is just the entry fee and you will find like others have done before you that the cost of bringing an old boat up to scratch and running it each year dwarfs the purchase cost. Set yourself a budget and buy the very best boat you can find that has a good engine, sails, rigging and can be used immediately. There are plenty of boats in the UK that potentially meet a beginner's requirements without trying to "game" the system.

 

[thvoyager]

Absolutely NOT. VAT is due the day you enter the UK. You are required to follow the reporting procedure here www.gov.uk/guidance/sailing-a-pleasure-craft-that-is-arriving-in-the-uk and Customs here www.gov.uk/government/collections/custom-rules-for-sailing-your-pleasure-craft-to-from-and-within-uk-waters

Why do you think that the UK government would allow you as a resident to keep a boat in the UK without paying the appropriate taxes and meeting the required regulations?.

Once you have read that you will see there is no "escape". This is the law of the land and failing to comply is a criminal offence.

As I wrote earlier, many people like you see "cheap" boats in other countries and imagine there are huge savings to be made - it is illusory, because if it were true "everybody" would be doing it (like booze cruises 20 years ago) - but they aren't. Even ignoring the new customs barriers, if were viable, the prices there would rise as people rushed to snap up these "bargains - but they don't. The boats are cheap because the price is dictated by the market and the only viable market is where they are located.

On a more general not on buying old cheap boats. The cost of the boat is just the entry fee and you will find like others have done before you that the cost of bringing an old boat up to scratch and running it each year dwarfs the purchase cost. Set yourself a budget and buy the very best boat you can find that has a good engine, sails, rigging and can be used immediately. There are plenty of boats in the UK that potentially meet a beginner's requirements without trying to "game" the system.

Good advice, thanks. It's what I needed to hear.

 

[bill bligh]

I do not know about the conformity, but from memory if the boat is the owners main full time living accommodation they would not have to pay VAT. I seem to remember the owner would not be able to sell the boat for something like two years. Does this still apply?

 

[westernman]

I do not know about the conformity, but from memory if the boat is the owners main full time living accommodation they would not have to pay VAT. I seem to remember the owner would not be able to sell the boat for something like two years. Does this still apply?

I think this still applies to new build canal boats (68ft seems typical).
I doubt you will convince HMRC that this scheme applies to anything which does not resemble a 68ft canal boat.

But VAT is the cheap bit. The expensive bit is that legally is the certification issue i.e. the new UK equivalent to RCD II (which AFAIK is exactly the same as RCD II at the moment). This needs to be done before you can legally use the boat for anything at all. Engine emissions will be a big problem almost certainly needing changing the engine.

 

[thvoyager]

I think this still applies to new build canal boats (68ft seems typical).
I doubt you will convince HMRC that this scheme applies to anything which does not resemble a 68ft canal boat.

But VAT is the cheap bit. The expensive bit is that legally is the certification issue i.e. the new UK equivalent to RCD II (which AFAIK is exactly the same as RCD II at the moment). This needs to be done before you can legally use the boat for anything at all. Engine emissions will be a big problem almost certainly needing changing the engine.

People buy old boats all the time, and live on them, do fun things, sail them.... Is this just the UK which is being a bit** or is it the whole world?! If it is the former, the see ya later behind the times UK!!

 

[Star-Lord]

I am from the UK. Found a sail yacht from 1980 in Norway. In Trondheim (centre).

This is my first boat. Iam loading myself with as much knowledge as possible, watching videos on boat surveys, how to do them, how to not do them, and why you will never be able to do it with no knowledge or experience. Still, any knowledge is better than no knowledge.

I want to look into getting a surveyor look it over.

My plan is to spend 3 days in Norway.

Day 1, view the boat myself and get a feel.
Day 2, if I like the boat, plan to meet surveyor on this day.
Day 3, relax.
Then come back in a few weeks and sail back with a yachtmaster or someone who isn't going to sink it!

Any good places to look?

That's a great plan. Keep it in Europe and save loads on berthing and buying in EU gets a cheaper boat and it is EU VAT paid.

 

[Tranona]

I do not know about the conformity, but from memory if the boat is the owners main full time living accommodation they would not have to pay VAT. I seem to remember the owner would not be able to sell the boat for something like two years. Does this still apply?

The rules for this are extremely restrictive and only apply to newbuilds that are effectively houseboats. Not in any way applicable to the sort of boats in this discussion.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

That's a great plan. Keep it in Europe and save loads on berthing and buying in EU gets a cheaper boat and it is EU VAT paid.

Norway is not in the EU. So that's a whole other world of pain if the OP wants, or thinks s/he wants, to take the boat to the EU.

 

[Tranona]

People buy old boats all the time, and live on them, do fun things, sail them.... Is this just the UK which is being a bit** or is it the whole world?! If it is the former, the see ya later behind the times UK!!

No, you can do it in the UK and all over Europe - people have been doing it for years. However it is becoming increasingly difficult because, particularly in the UK it is becoming difficult or extremely expensive to find berths that will accept liveaboards. For UK based people Europe is now no longer open for free movement and employment, so what was quite normal pre Brexit is no longer viable. Leaving aside the political issues buying an old boat and living aboard is not as "cheap" as it was. Old hands like me remember the happy old days 20+ years ago when you could wander round the Med full time on a fraction of the budget of living on land in the UK, working when you needed to top up the cruising fund. Now Europe, leaving aside the restrictions is far more expensive than living in the UK.

As for buying old boats in general, many find out pretty quickly that the amount of work and money required far exceeds their expectations which is why you see part finished projects languishing in yards unloved and racking up storage charges while the owner desperately tries to find the next dreamer to take it off his hands.

 

[westernman]

Norway is not in the EU. So that's a whole other world of pain if the OP wants, or thinks s/he wants, to take the boat to the EU.

Norway is in the EEA. So there is no issue with RCD II.
He just needs to pay VAT!

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Norway is in the EEA. So there is no issue with RCD II.
He just needs to pay VAT!

That's maybe true, but not what I meant. An EEA boat (Norway) is not VAT paid in the EU .