Buffer/Polisher?

[JumbleDuck]

In the process using Google and Utube I discovered the massive world of 'detailing' inhabited by hordes of experts and obsessives which make boat owners with their epoxy habit look like rank amateurs.

Ain't dat de troof.

There used to be an obsessive detailer on the uk.rec.driving Usenet newsgroup. He kept banging on about how worth it it was to pay a specialist £400 to polish his car and how very, very shiny it was as a result. Asked to show proof, he posted a link to some pictures which did indeed show a very very shiny car ... with several big dents in the doors. Apparently they didn't matter as long as they were very, very shiny.

 

[Marine Reflections]

They will all work to a degree.

When working with many different surface conditions one understands the need for different machines, different pads and different polishing / compounding mediums.

Can you use one machine set up with one pad and one type of polish to perform all the surface correction needs of all the surface conditions? Yes, but it's akin to a carpenter using one type of saw, or one type of chisel.

Different needs of a surface require different set-ups, but there are set-ups that will be better allrounders than one that is designed for say fine polishing only.


Weight:
Weight does play an important factor, but the bigger factor is the 'fight' of the set-up against the surface condition.
To over explain, imagine running a polisher and pad over a bed of nails, the pad will grip onto the rough surface and want to head in the direction of rotation, you will have to fight the machine to stay in position, a 2kg machine will turn into a 50kg machine.
Now using the very same set-up on a sheet of glass the set-up will glide smoothly over and there will be hardly any fight.
This is the reason a surface gets a thorough session of preparation prior to any polishing stages when the requirements are heavy.
If one needed to remove 30 microns from a surface before it can be classed as 'flat' it might take a very long time with a polishing set up, so you would remove say 28 microns with wet sanding before using a polishing set-up to hone the last 2 microns. When you did start using the polisher it will run very smooth and have the added bonus of there being very little if any 'fight'.

Rotation / Dual action:
The game has changed in the last decade or so.
Previously a dual action hasn't been much cop when it comes to heavy surface correction, this is due to how dual actions failed under pressure.
Some dual action machines (rotate and oscillate) stop rotating when pressure is applied, so you get left with just the oscillation to perform the correction until you reduce the pressure and it will start to rotate again.
Now we have dual action machines that have forced rotation that will rotate and oscillate regardless of the pressure applied.


"I'm surprised that people spend their time polishing cars and boats - haven't they got better things to do?
My car gets cleaned only at service time when those nice people at Audi do it for free. I once polished a boat but only with turtle wax (which made a nice job tho).
Polishing adds no speed or value as far as I am aware so doesn't get done."

Good to read your Audi at least gets some preventative maintenance, or were you adding speed and value?

Tony

 

[ghostlymoron]

The important caveat with my car cleaning is that Audi do it FOR FREE, otherwise it wouldn't get done. I've not noticed it goes any better when it's clean. Any rubbing/polishing removes surface finish so is best avoided.

"I'm surprised that people spend their time polishing cars and boats - haven't they got better things to do?
My car gets cleaned only at service time when those nice people at Audi do it for free. I once polished a boat but only with turtle wax (which made a nice job tho).
Polishing adds no speed or value as far as I am aware so doesn't get done."
[/I]
Good to read your Audi at least gets some preventative maintenance, or were you adding speed and value?

Tony

 

[Quandary]

Thanks for the responses, the last one is hopeful and suggests that dual action machines have improved and nowadays might cope with light work? I have two tasks for a machine if I purchase it, the first is the car door which has new clearcoat with a little visible 'orange peel'. I propose to rub that with 1200 wet followed by 2500 then use a foam pad and light abrasive polish to bring back a slightly reflective shine to match the rest of the car. I was going try this by hand but thought a £60 DA machine would be quicker and easier, I have time to spare but I am not going to become a 'detailer'.
If I bought the machine, after dealing with the door, I though I might take it out every spring when I usually wax and polish the hull by hand using 3M polish/wax. Again, I am simply maintaining clean topsides in a generally glossy condition, once back in the water it will just look white as usual but by waxing from time to time should look smarter when she is eventually sold, I really do believe that buyers prefer shiny hulls to dull ones? **** The involvement of the machine in this might make the job a bit easier and might even give a better look. Other times I might use the thing for some light sanding or polishing of metal or wood. I am not sure a machine weighing 4.5 kg. would be used more than once.
My garage loft is full of power tools that 'I might need some day', routers with worktop templates, gadgets for cutting finger joints or dovetails which I may have used for a few weeks years ago, these include a flying saucer shaped polisher which I bring out every five years just to confirm that it really is useless, the new 'polisher' is going to join them so that is why I am reluctant to spend much but want it to be of some use.
*** I have just bought a 20 year old boat, I looked closely at about five, the one I chose had been ashore every winter and waxed prior to launching and still had shiny gelcoat. To me, together with a clean interior and mildew free ropes and covers, it indicated an owner who cared enough to have maintained other things properly.

 

[Marine Reflections]

The important caveat with my car cleaning is that Audi do it FOR FREE, otherwise it wouldn't get done. I've not noticed it goes any better when it's clean. Any rubbing/polishing removes surface finish so is best avoided.

I was speaking more about the servicing (preventative maintenance) of the car, not the cleaning, but in fairness it was just a joke. The engine wasn't serviced because it had died, it was serviced so it wouldn't.

Re: "Any rubbing/polishing removes surface finish so is best avoided", is a common concern but would only be true if the surface condition was where it needed to be. If you could shave in your surfaces reflections, then they are where they need to be. Not to say that's where you desire to take them or can be bothered, just that that is the most cost effective status for those that can and do.
In that scenario of a near perfect condition preventative maintenance such as adding a protective coating to seal off from Oxygen and inhibit UV degredation should suffice and providing that was replaced (timed on that protections life span) correction should never be a part of the plan, as the protection is the sacrificial pawn and not the outer most microns of the gel coat.
The surface never gets to the point of requiring correction, at least that's the goal, not so easy on a 40ft boat hence we search for the longest duration of a protection product.

Most rubbing / polishing is done to refine the surface finish to where it needs to be, not remove it. Refining removes the highs / lows of the surface finish in order to reflect light (inc UV) and allow the surface to protect itself by means of reflection.
A surface with the slightest highs and lows will oxidise at a far greater rate than one that has a uniformed profile and is highly reflective. To remove a few microns (1000 microns to a mm) of dead / oxidised material should put the surface back to where it needs to be if that was all that was required to get back to base.

Of course we could raise the point - I'd rather be sailing - but this doesn't take away from the fact that correct surface condition and a preventative protective pawn is the most cost effective / economical procedures of maintaining condition.
Not polishing / correcting a surface finish due to fear of removing material when it has become dull, only ends in a higher correction bill for the new owner who wants it looking smart and performing how it should be.

 

[Marine Reflections]

Thanks for the responses, the last one is hopeful and suggests that dual action machines have improved and nowadays might cope with light work? I have two tasks for a machine if I purchase it, the first is the car door which has new clearcoat with a little visible 'orange peel'. I propose to rub that with 1200 wet followed by 2500 then use a foam pad and light abrasive polish to bring back a slightly reflective shine to match the rest of the car. I was going try this by hand but thought a £60 DA machine would be quicker and easier, I have time to spare but I am not going to become a 'detailer'.
If I bought the machine, after dealing with the door, I though I might take it out every spring when I usually wax and polish the hull by hand using 3M polish/wax. Again, I am simply maintaining clean topsides in a generally glossy condition, once back in the water it will just look white as usual but by waxing from time to time should look smarter when she is eventually sold, I really do believe that buyers prefer shiny hulls to dull ones? **** The involvement of the machine in this might make the job a bit easier and might even give a better look. Other times I might use the thing for some light sanding or polishing of metal or wood. I am not sure a machine weighing 4.5 kg. would be used more than once.
My garage loft is full of power tools that 'I might need some day', routers with worktop templates, gadgets for cutting finger joints or dovetails which I may have used for a few weeks years ago, these include a flying saucer shaped polisher which I bring out every five years just to confirm that it really is useless, the new 'polisher' is going to join them so that is why I am reluctant to spend much but want it to be of some use.
*** I have just bought a 20 year old boat, I looked closely at about five, the one I chose had been ashore every winter and waxed prior to launching and still had shiny gelcoat. To me, together with a clean interior and mildew free ropes and covers, it indicated an owner who cared enough to have maintained other things properly.

Indeed!

Whatever machine you buy is going to work, but in fairness by the sounds of your decription of the glossy surfaces, it would probably be just as easy by hand and would rule out any marring of the surfaces (don't be fooled into thinking a DA will avoid all marring) this is down to the surface prep prior to polishing.

On the door correction, may I suggest starting with 1500 on a flat rubber block, you can always keep going, but will need to add clear if you go too deep to start with. Don't forget that all 1500 paper is not equal, buget paper may well be sold as 1500 but may contain the odd 800 grit particle size, this will cause problems further down the line at the recovery stage.
The more refined the journey down into the clear coat the less correction you will require to recover from the sanding.
Rub a little then wipe dry to check progress.

In fact this may explain easier; dug this video out to help you.

 

[Momac]

I had a polisher on loan from a friend for the whole of last year .
The polisher didn't make it to the boat and has now been returned to its owner.
I find polishing by hand little and often, is sufficient . Not trying to deal with the entire boat in one hit.
Most of the time an apparently dull surface is caused simply by dirt - and responds well to a good non abrasive clean.
A friends boat has been polished in the past to the point that fibres are visible in some places .

 

[Marine Reflections]

I had a polisher on loan from a friend for the whole of last year .
The polisher didn't make it to the boat and has now been returned to its owner.
I find polishing by hand little and often, is sufficient . Not trying to deal with the entire boat in one hit.
Most of the time an apparently dull surface is caused simply by dirt - and responds well to a good non abrasive clean.
A friends boat has been polished in the past to the point that fibres are visible in some places .

I've recently worked on a new boat where some of the fibres are visible in places.

Yes, a surprising number of times I've been asked to perform surface correction where the owner was expecting a compounding / polishing process only for me to de-scale the residual TDS and reveal a near perfect finish with this stage alone. Always worth checking.

 

[ghostlymoron]

I haven't watched the complete video but using wet and dry grit paper is obviously removing the surface and will hasten the need for painting on grp.

Indeed!

Whatever machine you buy is going to work, but in fairness by the sounds of your decription of the glossy surfaces, it would probably be just as easy by hand and would rule out any marring of the surfaces (don't be fooled into thinking a DA will avoid all marring) this is down to the surface prep prior to polishing.

On the door correction, may I suggest starting with 1500 on a flat rubber block, you can always keep going, but will need to add clear if you go too deep to start with. Don't forget that all 1500 paper is not equal, buget paper may well be sold as 1500 but may contain the odd 800 grit particle size, this will cause problems further down the line at the recovery stage.
The more refined the journey down into the clear coat the less correction you will require to recover from the sanding.
Rub a little then wipe dry to check progress.

In fact this may explain easier; dug this video out to help you.

 

[Quandary]

The important caveat with my car cleaning is that Audi do it FOR FREE, otherwise it wouldn't get done. I've not noticed it goes any better when it's clean. Any rubbing/polishing removes surface finish so is best avoided.

My wife used to own a Golf, every time she had it serviced by the main dealer it came back sparkling, they told her the valet was always included with the service and was 'free'.
When I looked at her garage bill there was no item for valeting but all that meant was that it was not separately itemised, her servicing bills were twice as high as mine for a somewhat simpler car, it took her a while to accept that the team in the valeting shed had to be paid by someone.
She used to wash it before she took it in to the workshop which made the situation even more ridiculous, but then it was our first 'second' car.

 

[ghostlymoron]

I obviously understand that the complimentary valet is included in the price of the service along with the home collection service, the breakfast bap, endless coffee when waiting, comfortable chairs, colour tv and WiFi in the waiting area. All in all, it's a very pleasant experience - apart from the bill at the end.

 

[Stats007]

Every time Audi wash your cash they are scratching away at the surface with dirty sponges - personally I'd do it myself.

I don't think GM understands the concept of preventative maintenance. If you leave gelcoat unprotected it will quickly deteriorate with UV and oxidisation damage. The only way to recover from this is to correct the surface by wet sanding and/or compounding and then protecting with a sealant or wax. If you maintain a protective coat then there's no need for further correction.

For reference modern clearcoat finishes on cars are harder than gelcoat. This is the reason you buff at a slower speed with marine products to prevent heat build-up.

 

[blxm]

Every time Audi wash your cash they are scratching away at the surface with dirty sponges - personally I'd do it myself.

I don't think GM understands the concept of preventative maintenance. If you leave gelcoat unprotected it will quickly deteriorate with UV and oxidisation damage. The only way to recover from this is to correct the surface by wet sanding and/or compounding and then protecting with a sealant or wax. If you maintain a protective coat then there's no need for further correction.

For reference modern clearcoat finishes on cars are harder than gelcoat. This is the reason you buff at a slower speed with marine products to prevent heat build-up.

That's interesting. I didn't know that. I thought some two pack car paints were hard, I have two cars painted with it ante I must say they are tough but not gelcoat tough, but I am surprised that there are clear coats that are harder than gel coat. Have you got any names as I would be very interested in that as all the clear coats I'be used are not that hard.

 

[adwuk]

http://www.theultimatefinish.co.uk/dodo-juice/spin-doctor-lightweight-rotary-polisher-v2.aspx

Got one and it weighs in at under 2kilo and when you are doing a biggish boat size does matter.

Got one of these and it is excellent, and light. Combined with wool mops and the 3M polishes, we achieved a nice finish on the boat last year which has lasted. Should be a much quicker job this time round.