Budget Blue Water Kit - Idle Thoughts

[Concerto]

Two other things I would consider for an ocean trip would be a mast climbing aid and some fishing lines.

There is a self build wind steering. IIRC called the Hebridean. This would be a major cost saving and you could carry spares of the whole unit and still have plenty of change.

It is possible to cross the pond in a 33ft boat, I know of several 32ft Westerly Fulmars that have done it. I would not be fixed on a particular boat at present, but find something that has most of the equipment already fitted.

If you need an extra pole, then I bought one for my Fulmar for £400.

Roblpm best of luck in your planning.

 

[Kelpie]

Two other things I would consider for an ocean trip would be a mast climbing aid and some fishing lines.

There is a self build wind steering. IIRC called the Hebridean. This would be a major cost saving and you could carry spares of the whole unit and still have plenty of change.

It is possible to cross the pond in a 33ft boat, I know of several 32ft Westerly Fulmars that have done it. I would not be fixed on a particular boat at present, but find something that has most of the equipment already fitted.

If you need an extra pole, then I bought one for my Fulmar for £400.

Roblpm best of luck in your planning.

A mate of mine took his Co32 to Faroe and back using a Hebridean- he rates it very highly.
The design is easiest to build using timber, but I spoke to the designer and he said there's no reason why you couldn't use carbon, grp, metal etc if you wished.

 

[Kelpie]

This goes back to my earlier "how do you intend flying the second headsail?" question. I had a removable inner forestay installed a couple of months ago. I just ordered a storm jib and a #3 jib, the latter to do double duty as a second headsail when running and as a more efficient alternative to a furled headsail when beating into a strong breeze. The #3 was about roblpm's target price but the forestay itself was considerably more. An order of magnitude greater than £200. Then again I went the whole hog: highfield lever second genoa car track, strop connecting the padeye on deck to the stem. Not something you'd want to do with a boat you intend getting rid of in the near future.

Another thing to add to the list though (because it's on mine and being discussed in another current thread): salt water tap and pump if you don't already have one.

Like many boaty decisions, you can spec, and spend, what you want.
My inner fs is very close behind the main one (a Solent stay) so neither the mast nor deck needed any extra support. There is a riveted mast tang, a deck eye, and a length of wire with two swageless terminals and a normal bottlescrew. I've added a crude handle to the screw for ease of use.
It's far from being an all singing and dancing setup, and assembling the bottlescrew on a pitching deck would be hard work, but unless I'm short tacking I just leave it in place. It doesn't have to be up to the same strength as the rest of the rig because it could fail and the mast would stay up. I would happily recycle an old but good condition stay and bottlescrew for this job, making it a very low cost project if you were changing your standing rig anyway.

Dowsing a stayed sail is far easier than a free flying one, and I like the flexibility of the inner fs- I use it to fly a big lightweight genoa which complements the self tacking blade that lives on the furler, on the main fs.

 

[roblpm]

Two other things I would consider for an ocean trip would be a mast climbing aid and some fishing lines.

There is a self build wind steering. IIRC called the Hebridean. This would be a major cost saving and you could carry spares of the whole unit and still have plenty of change.

It is possible to cross the pond in a 33ft boat, I know of several 32ft Westerly Fulmars that have done it. I would not be fixed on a particular boat at present, but find something that has most of the equipment already fitted.

If you need an extra pole, then I bought one for my Fulmar for £400.

Roblpm best of luck in your planning.

Mast climbing..... Hmmmm. Not scared of water. Am scared of heights though! Maybe need to practice!

Was just watching a video of a Jester challenge guy crossing North Atlantic upwind in a Dehler 29. His comment was that it was a bit light!! I don't think I would attempt that! But shows its usually the person rather than the boat I think.

 

[GHA]

And no one has answered the question about backup rudder. So I am still voting hydrovane and tiller pilot. I quite fancy one of the new raymarine ones........ (aargh, this is impossible!)

Probably a good idea. I've had a usually broken underpowered st2000 for 15,000 miles solo, one that works in more than oily calm would be awfully nice but obviously not completely essential, though 36 hours hand steering across Biscay wasn't the height of fun but that was breaking a cardinal sin by having a calendar onboard
Big thing with mechanical is you almost certainly be able to fix it, enough to keep pointing in roughly the right direction anyway, with some bits of string and epoxy with a cable tie or two. Electronic, if just one resister goes mid-ocean then you're stuffed. Plus reliant on power from somewhere. There's a back room in MAYS chandler's in the Azores floor to ceiling with broken autopilot bits.

 

[doug748]

My basic kit for several thousand offshore miles in the last four years........

I have a cutter with a furling staysail and a furling headsail, keeps me off the foredeck in nasty weather.

........

When gazing at offshore boats, this feature always seems to me vital for cruising in deep water, shorthanded.

Inner forestays are fine, I have one, but I would not fancy rigging it in poor conditions. As a minimum I would have it rigged with the sail bagged in position, ready to go. Far better to have a dedicated sail, on a furler, ready to rock.

Has anyone fitted Wickham Martin type stowing kit to a traditional inner stay arrangement?

 

[Spuddy]

But surely, for nav equipment all that's needed is a compass and some butter.
I was comparing notes with a chum who I did a few thousand miles with; he went on to do an Atlantic circuit. The rig used downwind was a poled out genoa and main with preventer as others have already mentioned. No problems.
We're both totally disillusioned with Raymarine tiller pilots, especially the tp200. Yet another chum (yeah that's 3, aren't I popular) says Simrad is the better choice and he got a 32 which is now halfway across Pacific.
He also has a Hebridean. The three of us have built one each and we're all as pleased as punch - a very worthwhile off season project.
Some solar. 50W will cope with quite a lot and quite cheap nowadays.
Both the chums installed fridges ( probably to keep beer in) and useful for enough meaty stuff for 5 days or so. I've got a cool box with a clever switch that trips when voltage drops but usually keep it running for a bit then switch off manually for a bit then repeat. Doubt I'd trust contents after a few days.
AIS is ok but best if linked to a plotter at the helm with a decent size scree. The display on vhf radio controller models crams everything too tight and misleads.
Sailing boat ocean passages don't cooincide much with shipping routes. Once away from separation zones (can be scary) there's sod all for hundreds of miles. There's that French radar activated alarm that also gives a crude idea of where the threat is coming from. Never tried one cos had access to ais.
I reckon the issue that needs the most thought is food though! Moitessier lived off rice and lentils I believe which is too austere for me. Better to check out MingMing arrangements (Roger Taylor?) Can always go veggy for the later part of passage supplemented by tinned fish. I've just mastered rosti with corned beef; very tasty.

 

[roblpm]

But surely, for nav equipment all that's needed is a compass and some butter.
I was comparing notes with a chum who I did a few thousand miles with; he went on to do an Atlantic circuit. The rig used downwind was a poled out genoa and main with preventer as others have already mentioned. No problems.
We're both totally disillusioned with Raymarine tiller pilots, especially the tp200. Yet another chum (yeah that's 3, aren't I popular) says Simrad is the better choice and he got a 32 which is now halfway across Pacific.
He also has a Hebridean. The three of us have built one each and we're all as pleased as punch - a very worthwhile off season project.
Some solar. 50W will cope with quite a lot and quite cheap nowadays.
Both the chums installed fridges ( probably to keep beer in) and useful for enough meaty stuff for 5 days or so. I've got a cool box with a clever switch that trips when voltage drops but usually keep it running for a bit then switch off manually for a bit then repeat. Doubt I'd trust contents after a few days.
AIS is ok but best if linked to a plotter at the helm with a decent size scree. The display on vhf radio controller models crams everything too tight and misleads.
Sailing boat ocean passages don't cooincide much with shipping routes. Once away from separation zones (can be scary) there's sod all for hundreds of miles. There's that French radar activated alarm that also gives a crude idea of where the threat is coming from. Never tried one cos had access to ais.
I reckon the issue that needs the most thought is food though! Moitessier lived off rice and lentils I believe which is too austere for me. Better to check out MingMing arrangements (Roger Taylor?) Can always go veggy for the later part of passage supplemented by tinned fish. I've just mastered rosti with corned beef; very tasty.

To your nav gear I would add 3 etrex gps powered by aa batteries. I would be happy with that level of redundancy.

Food wise if i am on my own i have it sorted. Had to lose weight for type 2 diabetes and am a pro at eating the same boring food every day:

Eggs for breakfast (should last longest passage of 3-4 weeks. No pacific crossings for me).

Lunch: tin of tuna, tin of butter beans.

Dinner: tin of meat, tin of beans, tin of veg. (obviously at home this is fresh meat and veg but can be tinned).

Snacks - lots of nuts. Protein shakes.

Some tea and coffee and powdered milk.

Thats it!

 

[roblpm]

When gazing at offshore boats, this feature always seems to me vital for cruising in deep water, shorthanded.

Inner forestays are fine, I have one, but I would not fancy rigging it in poor conditions. As a minimum I would have it rigged with the sail bagged in position, ready to go. Far better to have a dedicated sail, on a furler, ready to rock.

Has anyone fitted Wickham Martin type stowing kit to a traditional inner stay arrangement?

Interesting. So for a passage temporarily rig a smaller sail permanently. Could be used for barn doors or in place of the larger genoa? And then removed for normal coastal or crewed life?

 

[GHA]

Inner forestays are fine, I have one, but I would not fancy rigging it in poor conditions. As a minimum I would have it rigged with the sail bagged in position, ready to go. Far better to have a dedicated sail, on a furler, ready to rock.

Another vote for a cutter rig, my staysail is hank on so in blow headsail gets rolled away then a reefed main and staysail gets the forces low and near the centre of the boat then back to the Kindle , staysail has reef points as well but never used them. Actually usually the only time the main gets the deep 3rd reef in is becalmed for a day or 2 to lessen the slatting otherwise it gets inside your very bones..

 

[roblpm]

Another vote for a cutter rig, my staysail is hank on so in blow headsail gets rolled away then a reefed main and staysail gets the forces low and near the centre of the boat then back to the Kindle , staysail has reef points as well but never used them. Actually usually the only time the main gets the deep 3rd reef in is becalmed for a day or 2 to lessen the slatting otherwise it gets inside your very bones..

Ah yes but I need a temporary cutter rig! Boat needs to be used for racing in between! Aha everyone says you cant do that!! One boat for cruising one for racing. But I want everything!!!

That Whykham Martin thing looks interesting. Could use the spinnaker halyard and a fixing on the deck to rig a permanently furled staysail for a passage? Then just need to buy the fixings and a staysail with a wire luff? And then make do with a poled out genoa and main. Slow but safe?

 

[doug748]

Interesting. So for a passage temporarily rig a smaller sail permanently. Could be used for barn doors or in place of the larger genoa? And then removed for normal coastal or crewed life?

The drawback is needing to furl the genoa almost fully for tacking but this is perhaps bearable for long passages. The inner forestay would still want to be parkable on the sidedeck for coastal sailing.

 

[Tranona]

Ah yes but I need a temporary cutter rig! Boat needs to be used for racing in between! Aha everyone says you cant do that!! One boat for cruising one for racing. But I want everything!!!

That Whykham Martin thing looks interesting. Could use the spinnaker halyard and a fixing on the deck to rig a permanently furled staysail for a passage? Then just need to buy the fixings and a staysail with a wire luff? And then make do with a poled out genoa and main. Slow but safe?

There is invariably a drawback to most ideas. Having an inner forestay that will both handle a second downwind sail, a storm sail and not interfere with the genoa is a challenge. The proper removable forestay such as Laika described earlier is the best compromise but is expensive. However in a recent article in PBO an Australian described a simpler version using dyneema.

For downwind sailing look at the Elvestrom twin sail arrangement (which is what the quote was for in my earlier post) which uses a torque rope to furl and is flown forward of the forestay. Only a solution to downwind sailing, although they claim can also be used broad reaching. Of course this is a dedicated sail and comes with a hefty price tag, and there are other ways of achieving similar objectives.

It is pretty obvious from the responses you have received that there is no one way of achieving your objective - you have everything from the minimalist upwards, although none from the cost no object end of the spectrum.

If you ever come to actually do it, you will work through the possible solutions to problems and establish your own priorities, then buy and equip your boat to suit you. it will, of course use ideas from others, and no doubt you will get some things wrong. however you will find ways of working round the deficiencies that you discover as you go along.

 

[westhinder]

There's that French radar activated alarm that also gives a crude idea of where the threat is coming from. Never tried one cos had access to ais.

There are also electronic radar reflectors that will give an alarm when they detect a radar signal. One of these was our first warning of shipping in the area on a recent passage Azores-Halifax. We then checked AIS, but that often detected the ship later as its aerial was lower (but still in plenty of time I should add)
An active radar reflector is now on my wish list

 

[Pete7]

Are you sure the ST2000 will be man enough for your new boat and your stub tiller may need extending to get enough leverage?

Still, it's pretty much what I've done - two entirely different systems: control heads, compass, AP computer, etc. The backup system can however only steer to a heading as no wind, or other data feeds.

All one needs to do is carry is a spare linear drive and that's basically 100% system redundancy. Ideal for those who don't want, or don't like wind vane systems.

Probably providing the rig is balanced and the seas aren't too rough.

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

Eggs for breakfast (should last longest passage of 3-4 weeks. No pacific crossings for me).

Lunch: tin of tuna, tin of butter beans.

Dinner: tin of meat, tin of beans, tin of veg. (obviously at home this is fresh meat and veg but can be tinned).

Snacks - lots of nuts. Protein shakes.

Some tea and coffee and powdered milk.

Thats it!

With that diet I don't think that you'll ever be becalmed...

 

[roblpm]

With that diet I don't think that you'll ever be becalmed...

��

 

[roblpm]

With that diet I don't think that you'll ever be becalmed...

But my blood sugar will be excellent. Middle of the ocean with no bread to lead me astray!

 

[ScallywagII]

I started an Atlantic circuit on my T23+ with a budget windvane and 2 elderly autopilots. The windvane lasted about 100 miles and the autopilots both required frequent repairs, and were soon relegated. £5 worth of bungee supplied the solution for the rest of the circuit. Bungee alone for windward work, and sheet to tiller for broad reaching. Twin genoas with the wind right aft. I had bought new sails but kept the old one, probably 40 years old as a spare and this was fine downwind when the forces are less anyway. I made two long poles with epoxy and glass around suitably sized plastic pipe. The wooden tapered ends had stainless D shackles welded onto stainless sheet let into them. Not really suited for racing changes like the spring loaded ends, but an extra hour on a 3 week crossing is just an extra hour of quality time. I have a video of the steering setups and a link to John Letcher's excellent "Self-steering for sailing boats" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnkDsDWl8zQ
Try these methods, or others from Letcher's book before even considering a windvane. If you get the windvane first you may not be willing to admit that you paid so much for kit you didn't need.

An AIS receiver with alarms is so useful for the shorthanded boat. I use a receiver only and will change course to increase separation if it looks a bit close. I now also use a radar target enhancer. This gives a very good signal on ship's radar and sounds an alarm in the cabin when a radar signal is detected. So two independent electronic lookout aids.

I go to sea to get away from it all, not take it all with me, so have minimum kit. Remember that every piece of electric / electronic kit is just one drop of salt water away from failure. A HF receiver is good for entertainment and weatherfax. With four days forecasts, it is certainly possible to route away from the worst of winds and around the windless centres of highs. I have done both. I link the radio to a netbook, which I had anyway.

 

[roblpm]

I started an Atlantic circuit on my T23+ with a budget windvane and 2 elderly autopilots. The windvane lasted about 100 miles and the autopilots both required frequent repairs, and were soon relegated. £5 worth of bungee supplied the solution for the rest of the circuit. Bungee alone for windward work, and sheet to tiller for broad reaching. Twin genoas with the wind right aft. I had bought new sails but kept the old one, probably 40 years old as a spare and this was fine downwind when the forces are less anyway. I made two long poles with epoxy and glass around suitably sized plastic pipe. The wooden tapered ends had stainless D shackles welded onto stainless sheet let into them. Not really suited for racing changes like the spring loaded ends, but an extra hour on a 3 week crossing is just an extra hour of quality time. I have a video of the steering setups and a link to John Letcher's excellent "Self-steering for sailing boats" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnkDsDWl8zQ
Try these methods, or others from Letcher's book before even considering a windvane. If you get the windvane first you may not be willing to admit that you paid so much for kit you didn't need.

An AIS receiver with alarms is so useful for the shorthanded boat. I use a receiver only and will change course to increase separation if it looks a bit close. I now also use a radar target enhancer. This gives a very good signal on ship's radar and sounds an alarm in the cabin when a radar signal is detected. So two independent electronic lookout aids.

I go to sea to get away from it all, not take it all with me, so have minimum kit. Remember that every piece of electric / electronic kit is just one drop of salt water away from failure. A HF receiver is good for entertainment and weatherfax. With four days forecasts, it is certainly possible to route away from the worst of winds and around the windless centres of highs. I have done both. I link the radio to a netbook, which I had anyway.

All good stuff. I was really attracted to the hydrovane as it can act as an emergency rudder. Any ideas on this?