Budget Blue Water Kit - Idle Thoughts

[roblpm]

So imagine you have a well found 33 footer, modern, say a Westerly Ocean 33. Well used and club raced in the uk so standing rigging, running rigging, engine etc all newish.

I was thinking about the minimum kit you would need for a longer cruise crossing a small ocean.

People always reckon for a huge budget for blue water goodies but is it really necessary?

Liferaft 2000
Garmin In reach (no ssb or satphone) 400 can get weather.
Self steering: Hydrovane to provide emergency steering 3500
Ais: matsutec 450
Maybe a downwind sail setup, twin headsails. 1000
Jacklines etc not much
New anchor and tender?

Thats it? No watermaker (take 5 litre plastic bottles of water). No fancy electronics. 3 Handheld gps to provide redundancy. No radar.

So to me it seems that for less than 10k you could be safe, even if you live on canned food and cant surf the Internet??!! Obviously shane acton had less than this but I am thinking a compromise between the huge lists that seem to be the norm for the arc now and nothing!?! No extended periods away from civilisation.

 

[Tranona]

There is plenty of advice on what sort of gear to carry. Good starting point is the MCA coding requirement. however, it is all about personal choice and budget so also useful to look at what others have done, often covered in blogs or books. The compulsory equipment lists required by some states such as France are also useful. However asking here (or any forum) will get you more lists based on what some actually do plus musings from those who have not done it.

BTW you won't get much in the way of downwind sails for £1000 new, if the recent quotes I have had for such a setup are anything to go by.

 

[GHA]

Sounds getting there for a "smallish" cruise, but for any length of time you'd probably quickly be wanting to add some good batteries and a some solar, little genny's can be a godsend as well living on the hook. No way you'll ever get the batteries to full charge with a genny or engine in the real world so solar is high up the list if you want the batts to last any length of time.

SSB receivers (degen 1103) are IMHO very high up the list for getting weatherfax offshore, android tablets are surprisingly good at decoding. Much better at seeing the big picture than gribs (which are also very nice to have, both is great)

Otherwise... raspberry pi's are coming of age for charting and combined with a tablet in the cockpit more than capable of doing a host of things without the power draw of a laptop.. There are sometimes "print parties" on a boat in the anchorage with a printer to get some harbours etc on paper from Opencpn if you don't have any.

Plusa bit on consumables, bag of dyneema is really handy for lots of things, make your own shackles etc.

 

[macd]

BTW you won't get much in the way of downwind sails for £1000 new, if the recent quotes I have had for such a setup are anything to go by.

In spades. And that's before you add the poles and other kit to use them.

 

[roblpm]

In spades. And that's before you add the poles and other kit to use them.

Really? Poled out dacron genoa?

 

[Tranona]

Really? Poled out dacron genoa?

Yes, really. Quote for a pair of 145% 3oz dacron sails and furling gear for a similar size boat £3700. Single 145% genoa to use with existing genoa would be well over £1k on its own - plus poles......

 

[Yngmar]

It all depends on your kind of sailing, the level of comfort and safety you expect and how much stuff you can actually cram on a 33 footer

For example, a liferaft was a very low priority for me when I single-handed, but when I met some long-term crew this priority increased and I grudgingly paid the money to service the one that came with the boat. It still annoys me, because it is huge, heavy, expensive and in the way. If you just want to do one crossing to get to a nicer cruising ground, rental might be an option (although beware if you fall under local legislation that may require you to carry one).

I place high priority on self-sufficiency, so I carry a large amount of weight in tools, spare parts and generic parts that I can bodge something from if need be. In my opinion you should be able to somehow cope with the common breakages if you want to cross an ocean: Rudder loss, rig loss, engine failure and self-steering failure. Of course some people's idea of dealing with any of these is to trigger their EPIRB, try and not get crushed to death clambering up a netting on the side of a cargo ship and then wait for the insurance payout.

The need for power generation has already been covered - relying on alternator alone is troublesome and you'll have no power in case of engine trouble.

Then there's what you want to do when you get somewhere. If you want to go into a marina, you're sorted for water, power, internet, etc. If you want to spend some time at anchor, other priorities increase: Ground tackle you can trust, power generation and storage, water, a good tender and hopefully a holding tank.

Radar cost is hard to justify, but an AIS receiver absolutely worth the £15 (RTL-SDR receiver + OpenCPN aisdecoder). You don't really need a transceiver, although if single-handing I would (and eventually did) fit one. Watermaker not needed, just a bit of discipline. Having two independent methods of self-steering (i.e. windvane + autopilot) would rank much higher, especially for short-handed crews. My boat came with Navtex, which is actually quite handy, as it does both weather forecasts/warnings as well as navigational warnings. A handheld radio receiver with software decoder on the computer can sometimes pick up Navtex, although not well. It does pick up weatherfax and voice forecasts okay though.

Downwind sails - we just added a pole, as we have a large Genoa and in light airs sail either wing-on-wing or just under poled out sail. Not the fastest method though.

In general money-saving while outfitting - don't always buy the latest and greatest, plenty of used/older kit around that'll do you just as well. Do as much as you can yourself, you'll save money and more importantly you'll know more about it when it breaks underway.

Lastly, a book tip. Great advice on a lot of the ocean cruising gear with honest discussion of each items pros and cons.

 

[roblpm]

It all depends on your kind of sailing, the level of comfort and safety you expect and how much stuff you can actually cram on a 33 footer

For example, a liferaft was a very low priority for me when I single-handed, but when I met some long-term crew this priority increased and I grudgingly paid the money to service the one that came with the boat. It still annoys me, because it is huge, heavy, expensive and in the way. If you just want to do one crossing to get to a nicer cruising ground, rental might be an option (although beware if you fall under local legislation that may require you to carry one).

I place high priority on self-sufficiency, so I carry a large amount of weight in tools, spare parts and generic parts that I can bodge something from if need be. In my opinion you should be able to somehow cope with the common breakages if you want to cross an ocean: Rudder loss, rig loss, engine failure and self-steering failure. Of course some people's idea of dealing with any of these is to trigger their EPIRB, try and not get crushed to death clambering up a netting on the side of a cargo ship and then wait for the insurance payout.

The need for power generation has already been covered - relying on alternator alone is troublesome and you'll have no power in case of engine trouble.

Then there's what you want to do when you get somewhere. If you want to go into a marina, you're sorted for water, power, internet, etc. If you want to spend some time at anchor, other priorities increase: Ground tackle you can trust, power generation and storage, water, a good tender and hopefully a holding tank.

Radar cost is hard to justify, but an AIS receiver absolutely worth the £15 (RTL-SDR receiver + OpenCPN aisdecoder). You don't really need a transceiver, although if single-handing I would (and eventually did) fit one. Watermaker not needed, just a bit of discipline. Having two independent methods of self-steering (i.e. windvane + autopilot) would rank much higher, especially for short-handed crews. My boat came with Navtex, which is actually quite handy, as it does both weather forecasts/warnings as well as navigational warnings. A handheld radio receiver with software decoder on the computer can sometimes pick up Navtex, although not well. It does pick up weatherfax and voice forecasts okay though.

Downwind sails - we just added a pole, as we have a large Genoa and in light airs sail either wing-on-wing or just under poled out sail. Not the fastest method though.

In general money-saving while outfitting - don't always buy the latest and greatest, plenty of used/older kit around that'll do you just as well. Do as much as you can yourself, you'll save money and more importantly you'll know more about it when it breaks underway.

Lastly, a book tip. Great advice on a lot of the ocean cruising gear with honest discussion of each items pros and cons.

Ok thanks. Good stuff.

So I will have a tiller pilot as a backup for the self steering. Some solar for emergency power. Short wave radio for weatherfax.

Hmmmm rig loss. Not sure i will have enough diesel to get to the other side with no sails. Any easy jury rig ideas? Rudder loss = hydrovane.

I still think 10k will do it.

 

[roblpm]

Yes, really. Quote for a pair of 145% 3oz dacron sails and furling gear for a similar size boat £3700. Single 145% genoa to use with existing genoa would be well over £1k on its own - plus poles......

Ok smaller boat maybe. And i was assuming i would already have one genoa. Surely i could buy a second hand genoa for occasional use and a pole for less than a thousand pounds.

 

[prv]

Hmmmm rig loss. Not sure i will have enough diesel to get to the other side with no sails. Any easy jury rig ideas?

Without weighing the boat down with bulky specialist kit that's unlikely to be used, I think it just has to come down to a good set of generic tools and spare gear (shackles, blocks, and similar chandlery) that you should have on board anyway. Maybe take a coil of suitably-sized dyneema, with half an eye to becoming jury-rig stays as well as less drastic uses in the meantime - stretchy rope is a significant embuggerance when trying to assemble any improvised structure.

Pete

 

[roblpm]

Without weighing the boat down with bulky specialist kit that's unlikely to be used, I think it just has to come down to a good set of generic tools and spare gear (shackles, blocks, and similar chandlery) that you should have on board anyway. Maybe take a coil of suitably-sized dyneema, with half an eye to becoming jury-rig stays as well as less drastic uses in the meantime - stretchy rope is a significant embuggerance when trying to assemble any improvised structure.

Pete

Good idea. A reel of dyneema isn't going to break the budget.

 

[Tranona]

Ok smaller boat maybe. And i was assuming i would already have one genoa. Surely i could buy a second hand genoa for occasional use and a pole for less than a thousand pounds.

Yes, of course you can, but read my post 2 again. I specifically said new, but also said your choice of gear is a matter of personal preference and size of budget. So if you only budget £1k for a sail you lock yourself out of buying new. if you decide on new or can't get what you want used then the figures I suggested are realistic for a 33' boat.

The reality is that you (if you ever get there!) will start off with a long list which you will gradually work through and make your own decision on the compromises - and you might even decide that the boat you have in mind is not a good starting point.

 

[alant]

Sounds getting there for a "smallish" cruise, but for any length of time you'd probably quickly be wanting to add some good batteries and a some solar, little genny's can be a godsend as well living on the hook. No way you'll ever get the batteries to full charge with a genny or engine in the real world so solar is high up the list if you want the batts to last any length of time.

SSB receivers (degen 1103) are IMHO very high up the list for getting weatherfax offshore, android tablets are surprisingly good at decoding. Much better at seeing the big picture than gribs (which are also very nice to have, both is great)

Otherwise... raspberry pi's are coming of age for charting and combined with a tablet in the cockpit more than capable of doing a host of things without the power draw of a laptop.. There are sometimes "print parties" on a boat in the anchorage with a printer to get some harbours etc on paper from Opencpn if you don't have any.

Plusa bit on consumables, bag of dyneema is really handy for lots of things, make your own shackles etc.

"Weatherfax offshore"?
For most small yachts they don't have enough legs to avoid any 'bad' weather & if you can't see it coming by observing conditions, should you be out there?

 

[GHA]

"Weatherfax offshore"?
For most small yachts they don't have enough legs to avoid any 'bad' weather & if you can't see it coming by observing conditions, should you be out there?

Hope for the best then? How are you going to know when to leave when anchored up well away from wifi? Even a few dozen miles N or S can make a big difference running along 38ishN to the Azores as the lows come through, wfax Boston will give you a good idea of where they're tracking. No way you'll get enough notice watching the barometer

Not having a cheap SSB receiver & something to decode costs little , going cross ocean without at least that for weather is just plain dumb IMHO.

 

[laika]

Maybe a downwind sail setup, twin headsails. 1000

Do you have roller furling and how were thinking of flying this? And on the subject of sails...do you have a storm jib?

It may be sacrilege to note that for the cost of a windvane you could buy a hydrogenerator to power your autopilot on passage (yes yes, more to go wrong with an autopilot....)

 

[alant]

Hope for the best then? How are you going to know when to leave when anchored up well away from wifi? Even a few dozen miles N or S can make a big difference running along 38ishN to the Azores as the lows come through, wfax Boston will give you a good idea of where they're tracking. No way you'll get enough notice watching the barometer

Not having a cheap SSB receiver & something to decode costs little , going cross ocean without at least that for weather is just plain dumb IMHO.

At anchor, is not "offshore".

 

[GHA]

At anchor, is not "offshore".

Read the thread title.

unless you only post because you just want to stir things up a bit...

 

[roblpm]

Yes, of course you can, but read my post 2 again. I specifically said new, but also said your choice of gear is a matter of personal preference and size of budget. So if you only budget £1k for a sail you lock yourself out of buying new. if you decide on new or can't get what you want used then the figures I suggested are realistic for a 33' boat.

The reality is that you (if you ever get there!) will start off with a long list which you will gradually work through and make your own decision on the compromises - and you might even decide that the boat you have in mind is not a good starting point.

Sure. I appreciate your input. As you say its a question of if I ever get there. And the more expensive the whole project the more likely it will remain a fantasy! Thus the point of this thread. My current boat now has the basics sorted so I know about going from a 25 year old boat in good condition to one where I trust every bit of it. So I would be happy doing this part again with a more suitable boat. The bit I have no experience of is going from a coastal cruiser to something that is safe offshore.

 

[roblpm]

Hope for the best then? How are you going to know when to leave when anchored up well away from wifi? Even a few dozen miles N or S can make a big difference running along 38ishN to the Azores as the lows come through, wfax Boston will give you a good idea of where they're tracking. No way you'll get enough notice watching the barometer

Not having a cheap SSB receiver & something to decode costs little , going cross ocean without at least that for weather is just plain dumb IMHO.

I think an ssb receiver is not much anyway? Though I have tried it before and couldn't get it to work at my house with a shortwave radio with the right frequencies! Examples of a shortwave receiver?

 

[roblpm]

At anchor, is not "offshore".

True. But when I get somewhere else I would like the option of anchoring while I sleep.....! To save money.