Bought a Never splashed Colvic Countess 33 on eBay, Looking for infos

[steveeasy]

I would imagine the money spent on boat restorations adds significantly to support all types of marine buineses. It would be very interesting to know the approx number of new boats sold vs used and unused boats sold and a comparison of monies spent on them. Could be very interesting !.
Steveeasy

 

[solent clown]

Win lose or draw, on a PBO forum it is good to see, hopefully, someone going for it, tools in hand.
Regardless of success or otherwise, budget, skint knuckles, or time, the PRACTICAL part of boat ownership is as much of the experience and sometimes dubious pleasure as using the end product.
Now we have had a little fun in a ready built yacht that merely needed fettling, and having bolted and fettled another together from parts, we are ready to have a go at our own stalled project we put aside to gain experience on the water with first. Still 25ft, so similar to what we have now, a butt ugly Listang, but it suits us for our own idiosynchrochatic reasons that defy some common sense and logic. Mostly we like the huge space below for 25foot yacht. Our plans for electric propulsion went by the wayside as realistic budgeting put it out of our reach. So we are going a fairly conventional way, and I have spent year quielty gathering all the bits together from here and there. We have done this very cheaply, including purchase of the bare hull, we have a rig, and sails etc, enough to make it move if tghe wind blows, for under £500. But that was a lot of bargain hunting, and sails for a boat this size are easy to come by. Where we know it is going to cost us dear is the fitting out down below, and the electronics. Try as I might I cannot get that cost down to nowt, even though we are not using any plywood or melamine, the interior is all going to be stainless tube and aluminium sheet which for me is very cheap. It is when you factor in all the bits and bobs, electrics, plumbing, the list goes on that the cost really does skyrocket beyond any theoretical budget anyone except a project manager would imagine. Stuff can all be found cheap, and finding it can be part of the fun, but it takes time. Time also eats in to the budget.
Good luck Oddities, enjoy the build, and if time and budget slide, let it, just take it as it comes. You will have a few I told you so types, but they will still be watching and congratulating you on every milestone you pass.
Dream it, build it, sail it.

 

[Concerto]

Re: VIDEO UPDATE. 005 the Lady itself.

The answer to your last question is exactly what you have written as "positives".

High tech stuff is totally irrelevant to this project. It is a 40 year old, old fashioned design. It need a set of hardware to turn it into a boat which has not changed in those 40 years and about 3000 hours of labour to attach those bits to the existing hull.

However much you try to say that clever work and clever buying will reduce this, there is a minimum of £40k worth of hardware required to turn it into a functioning boat of a basic standard. As in an earlier post you can buy one that is actually better than you could achieve for that budget for £20k. Never mind the labour hours required which would be over a year full time (60 hours a week) or 2 years at a more sensible pace. How do you think two novices who have never done this before are going to achieve that, particularly when they seem to reject all the advice from people, both professional and DIYers who have done all this before?

Why is there any virtue in working on abandoned boats except as a makework activity? given that so few ever get finished so remain abandoned having eaten up another load of money and time of deluded people.

Oddities want to fit out a boat their way. So your comments are irrelevant to them. They have 2 aims, to complete the boat and do it as cheaply as possible. I doubt if any of the nay sayers comments will stop this project.

The comment about being an old fashioned design makes an assumption that all new designs are better than established designs. Contessa 32's are an old design that have a strong following, some owners are having their old boats completely renovated by Jeremy Rogers at huge expense. Why? Twisters with the very outdated long keel also remain popular. Why? Sigma 33's are an old design but remain popular. Why? I have a Westerly Fulmar, but I could have bought a new 32ft yacht. Why? Even day boats like the Daring, Dragon, Etchells, Flying 15, Mermaid, Redwing, Squib, Sunbeam, Swallow, Victory and XOD are popular enough to have classes at Cowes Week. Why? People enjoy sailing older designs. Many people enjoy the way they sail by sitting in the water rather than bouncing on the water in a modern design. Not everyone wants to buy a boat designed for Mediterranean charter holidays, which most new designs are like or as many describe as floating caravans where the interior is more important than how they sail.

The Oddities will end up with a 40 year old design, but first launched in 2018. So even if their budget is doubled, they will end up with a cheap "new" boat. Comparisons to a 40 year old second hand version of the same boat which will never be worth as much as a newly launched version, even with some second hand parts.

The Oddities will certainly get a lot of pleasure and satisfaction from completing this project and I wish them ever encouragement.

 

[Tranona]

Re: VIDEO UPDATE. 005 the Lady itself.

Oddities want to fit out a boat their way. So your comments are irrelevant to them. They have 2 aims, to complete the boat and do it as cheaply as possible. I doubt if any of the nay sayers comments will stop this project.

The comment about being an old fashioned design makes an assumption that all new designs are better than established designs. Contessa 32's are an old design that have a strong following, some owners are having their old boats completely renovated by Jeremy Rogers at huge expense. Why? Twisters with the very outdated long keel also remain popular. Why? Sigma 33's are an old design but remain popular. Why? I have a Westerly Fulmar, but I could have bought a new 32ft yacht. Why? Even day boats like the Daring, Dragon, Etchells, Flying 15, Mermaid, Redwing, Squib, Sunbeam, Swallow, Victory and XOD are popular enough to have classes at Cowes Week. Why? People enjoy sailing older designs. Many people enjoy the way they sail by sitting in the water rather than bouncing on the water in a modern design. Not everyone wants to buy a boat designed for Mediterranean charter holidays, which most new designs are like or as many describe as floating caravans where the interior is more important than how they sail.

The Oddities will end up with a 40 year old design, but first launched in 2018. So even if their budget is doubled, they will end up with a cheap "new" boat. Comparisons to a 40 year old second hand version of the same boat which will never be worth as much as a newly launched version, even with some second hand parts.

The Oddities will certainly get a lot of pleasure and satisfaction from completing this project and I wish them ever encouragement.

Laudable aims but totally unachievable, both budget and time. Foolish to even think it can be done. Every time they are asked for concrete information on what their special techniques or materials are there is just a load of waffle along the lines of "you would not understand".

You are missing the point about it being an old design. It is nothing to do with it being better or worse than newer (or different) designs. It was designed with home completion in mind so is based on simple technology and readily available standard type components. There is no need for any advanced technology - just obtain the bits and attach them to the boat using standard boat building techniques. There is of course scope for updating in many areas such as electrics and electronics, modern engine, water systems etc where things have moved on - just as you have done with your boat.

BTW remind us how much you have spent on your boat doing a fraction of the work they need to do? And then explain why you think they can achieve what they claim.

If the boat is ever launched it will not be in 2018 and neither will it be worth anywhere near what it will cost them, nor will it be "new" unless everything is new which raises the cost even higher.

 

[Concerto]

Re: VIDEO UPDATE. 005 the Lady itself.

Tranona

We are going to differ on this project. You are looking at it solely from an economic point of view, but I am looking at it from an achievement point of view. They want to do this project and I doubt if any adverse comments will stop them.

We all maintain our boats (or not in some cases) to ensure they function correctly. With my boat there have been maintenance, renovations and improvements. I agree I have spent more than I originally planned, but only just over my overall initial planned spending limit on purchase and renovations. This was still only a third of what a new boat would have cost. However many of the improvements were done because I wanted a much better boat than doing it the cheapest way. Examples include solid teak cockpit panels, changing all the winches to be self tailing and over size, more powerful auto pilot, new stanchions and bases with side gates that were 3" higher for extra safety, better quality sails, solid kicking strap, warm air heating, etc.

I know that I will not get the money back on what I have spent if I sold today, but it was always my intention to keep Concerto for at least 10 years so it was all done for my benefit. Even in years to come my Fulmar will be considered as one of the very best examples for condition and level of equipment, both making it much easier to sell when the time comes to swallow the anchor. Compared to your Bavaria, I expect I will probably loose less money overall as your boat will continue depreciating over the next 10 years, whereas many classic old boats will depreciate very little by comparison. So comparing our choices of yachts and using the economic point of view, may be buying a new boat is not such a good idea.

So returning to the Oddities. Greg wanted to fit out a boat to sail away into the sunset. He wanted to do this as cheaply as possible, so bought a project boat on eBay. With no direct boat building experience, but experience of using similar, or more expensive materials, that can be used in boat building. Their budget is minuscule, but I doubt if much of what they purchase will come from a chandlers, but determined people can find bargains if prepared to hunt. I agree the budget and time scale are probably unlikely to be kept, but I still expect them to complete the boat and launch her.

 

[Just_sayin']

Re: VIDEO UPDATE. 005 the Lady itself.

Concerto

We are going to have to differ on your observation that old = classic.

From Google, that classic search engine:

"judged over a period of time to be of the highest quality and outstanding of its kind"

"a work of art of recognized and established value"

However just in case you're right I'm just going to get all my old AA, AAA etc batteries out of their recycling box because, well, they're old and probably worth something :sleeping:

 

[Concerto]

Re: VIDEO UPDATE. 005 the Lady itself.

We are going to have to differ on your observation that old = classic.

From Google, that classic search engine:

"judged over a period of time to be of the highest quality and outstanding of its kind"

"a work of art of recognized and established value"

There are ways to spot a classic yacht - they sell at a premium over other similar sized boats of the same period.

A short list of classic GRP yachts includes:
Contessa 26
Twister
Contessa 32
Nicholson 32
Sadler 32
Westerly Fulmar
Sigma 33
SS 34
Nicholson 35
Rustler 36
Swan 36
Nicholson 43
Swan 44

All of these yachts were well designed and built, definitely better than many other brands. Others may be suggested, but there were also a lot of poorly designed yachts from the 1960's to 1980's, many still sailing today.

 

[Tranona]

Re: VIDEO UPDATE. 005 the Lady itself.

Tranona

We are going to differ on this project. You are looking at it solely from an economic point of view, but I am looking at it from an achievement point of view. They want to do this project and I doubt if any adverse comments will stop them.

We all maintain our boats (or not in some cases) to ensure they function correctly. With my boat there have been maintenance, renovations and improvements. I agree I have spent more than I originally planned, but only just over my overall initial planned spending limit on purchase and renovations. This was still only a third of what a new boat would have cost. However many of the improvements were done because I wanted a much better boat than doing it the cheapest way. Examples include solid teak cockpit panels, changing all the winches to be self tailing and over size, more powerful auto pilot, new stanchions and bases with side gates that were 3" higher for extra safety, better quality sails, solid kicking strap, warm air heating, etc.

I know that I will not get the money back on what I have spent if I sold today, but it was always my intention to keep Concerto for at least 10 years so it was all done for my benefit. Even in years to come my Fulmar will be considered as one of the very best examples for condition and level of equipment, both making it much easier to sell when the time comes to swallow the anchor. Compared to your Bavaria, I expect I will probably loose less money overall as your boat will continue depreciating over the next 10 years, whereas many classic old boats will depreciate very little by comparison. So comparing our choices of yachts and using the economic point of view, may be buying a new boat is not such a good idea.

So returning to the Oddities. Greg wanted to fit out a boat to sail away into the sunset. He wanted to do this as cheaply as possible, so bought a project boat on eBay. With no direct boat building experience, but experience of using similar, or more expensive materials, that can be used in boat building. Their budget is minuscule, but I doubt if much of what they purchase will come from a chandlers, but determined people can find bargains if prepared to hunt. I agree the budget and time scale are probably unlikely to be kept, but I still expect them to complete the boat and launch her.

You are still not getting it. It is not just the economics, it is much more fundamental than that. What they are proposing is simply unachievable. They just have unrealistic expectations of what is involved and what can be achieved, almost irrespective of budget.

There is a trade off between the time taken for the build and approach to sourcing materials. When the boat was designed there was an assumption that it could be completed from a hull by using packages of materials identical to those used by the professional completers, with a saving of the labour involved. This is a very straightforward job, but would still take an individual builder years of part time work to complete. There was obviously scope for customisation, but the more the builder indulged the longer it took.

What these two are suggesting is ignoring this simple process and trying new techniques and materials which are unproven (how could they be when neither have any experience) and using components that are different from those originally intended, either because they can't buy them cheaply or have to make them. They will spend more time figuring out how to do things about which they know so little, then sourcing parts than actually attaching things to the boat.

As I said earlier a build time for a standard boat with experienced fitters would be in the order of 3000 man hours - it is a very labour intensive boat simply because it was designed for home builders. It is just ludicrous to think that none of this applies to them.

I know that DIY building is about more than money, otherwise I would not have owned my other boat for nigh on 40 years, carried out two engine changes and two major refits, one of which involved fitting a redesigned keel and making a new rudder together with extending the coachroof - oh and laying a teak deck. Plus building my first two boats from kits, one wood and the other GRP.

So, every time I have asked Greg how he is going to do it, what I am really interested in is how did I get it so wrong over the last 40 odd years. To be honest I don't think he has a clue and maybe it is slowly dawning on him that what he is trying to do is simply not possible - not just at the margin of underestimating the cost and time by a bit but totally.

 

[Dutch01527]

Re: VIDEO UPDATE. 005 the Lady itself.

There are ways to spot a classic yacht - they sell at a premium over other similar sized boats of the same period.

A short list of classic GRP yachts includes:
Contessa 26
Twister
Contessa 32
Nicholson 32
Sadler 32
Westerly Fulmar
Sigma 33
SS 34
Nicholson 35
Rustler 36
Swan 36
Nicholson 43
Swan 44

All of these yachts were well designed and built, definitely better than many other brands. Others may be suggested, but there were also a lot of poorly designed yachts from the 1960's to 1980's, many still sailing today.

In my completely unbiased and objective view, I own one, many Dehler’s from the 1980’s should be on the list. Particularly the 34 which I do not have but would love to. Not attracting a premium but worthy of being being so valued.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Re: VIDEO UPDATE. 005 the Lady itself.

There are ways to spot a classic yacht - they sell at a premium over other similar sized boats of the same period.

A short list of classic GRP yachts includes:
Contessa 26
Twister
Contessa 32
Nicholson 32
Sadler 32
Westerly Fulmar
Sigma 33
SS 34
Nicholson 35
Rustler 36
Swan 36
Nicholson 43
Swan 44

All of these yachts were well designed and built, definitely better than many other brands. Others may be suggested, but there were also a lot of poorly designed yachts from the 1960's to 1980's, many still sailing today.

You are as deluded as Greg. I see one or two that might be classed as modern classics, but i find it laughable that of all the Westerlies built the only one in your list is the Fulmar, which you just happen to own and have just spent a zillion hours and a not insignificant sum of money re-fitting.

 

[steveeasy]

Re: VIDEO UPDATE. 005 the Lady itself.

See one or two !. Yes you make me laugh. Who cares quite frankly how individuals perceive older boats and what makes a classic. From a business point of view I'm sure they add to the pot.

Steveeasy

 

[Tranona]

Re: VIDEO UPDATE. 005 the Lady itself.

You are as deluded as Greg. I see one or two that might be classed as modern classics, but i find it laughable that of all the Westerlies built the only one in your list is the Fulmar, which you just happen to own and have just spent a zillion hours and a not insignificant sum of money re-fitting.

Indeed. If all boats owned and loved by forum members were classified as "classics" the list would be as long as this thread. I am sure your Discus and my Eventide would be near the top - especially if the list was alphabetic. Above the Fulmar, but below the Countess!

 

[GregOddity]

Re: VIDEO UPDATE. 005 the Lady itself.

AND !!! back from the dead… We spent last week very VERY short ranged with a bad case of food poisoning. Don’t know what it was but it was NASTY !
I see you guys are all having fun. That is what boat building is all about. Meanwhile we go back to the boat and go on with the “Follie de Bateaux “
We finally decided to (don’t laugh) Polish the boat… need to find all the crazing and mark it.
Sorry I haven’t been posting but I wasn’t too well.
But as a sweetener, Here’s a small summary.
We bought the boat in the 25th of January with the understanding of being able to move and work on it in April. The yard got a bit too busy and we just been able to move the boat the week before last. We spent on Oddity about £800 so far in mats and marina fees and everything else since April. About £200 for marina fees a month and a few cowls. Plus, a survey of a couple of hundred. We only started paying for the hard in April as part of that understanding.

 

[GregOddity]

Re: VIDEO UPDATE. 005 the Lady itself.

Indeed. If all boats owned and loved by forum members were classified as "classics" the list would be as long as this thread. I am sure your Discus and my Eventide would be near the top - especially if the list was alphabetic. Above the Fulmar, but below the Countess!

Haa yes BELLOW the Countess ( colvic 33 of course )

 

[Tranona]

Re: VIDEO UPDATE. 005 the Lady itself.

Haa yes BELLOW the Countess ( colvic 33 of course )

No need to shout (BELLOW gedit). I also have a BAVARIA which is not only higher on the alphabetic list but a far superior (in my opinion) boat than many on concerto's list.

Hope you get better soon. Keep off the oysters, but allowed a drop of champagne from time to time.

 

[GregOddity]

Re: VIDEO UPDATE. 005 the Lady itself.

No need to shout (BELLOW gedit). I also have a BAVARIA which is not only higher on the alphabetic list but a far superior (in my opinion) boat than many on concerto's list.

Hope you get better soon. Keep off the oysters, but allowed a drop of champagne from time to time.

Thanks, I really don't know what it was that we ate, we ate the same as a few other people and we were the only ones affected. I hear you on the Oysters. I will stick to the champagne for the foreseeable future.
And I do like Bavarias from al lthe boats we saw I was mostly tempted by Bavarias.

 

[Iain C]

Re: VIDEO UPDATE. 005 the Lady itself.

...and for nine grand more than your projected budget you could have had one a smidge bigger than your Countess and been sailing around already.

That said, if you're genuinely going high latitudes/blue water cruising, the Countess may arguably be more solid...but then again may not...

 

[PaulRainbow]

Re: VIDEO UPDATE. 005 the Lady itself.

...and for nine grand more than your projected budget you could have had one a smidge bigger than your Countess and been sailing around already.

That said, if you're genuinely going high latitudes/blue water cruising, the Countess may arguably be more solid...but then again may not...

I have a Westerly Discus, despite published figures she's actually a little bigger the the Countess, at 35 feet. I paid £20k for her and sailed her home. Holding tank, heating, fridge, hot and cold water, brand new cooker, generator, electric windlass, hull done with Gelshield, lots of self tailing winches, etc etc. I fitted a new genoa and new upholstery in the saloon, less than £2k. I've done some other stuff, but that was generally through choice, not necessity.

As for high lat sailing with a Discus : http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/author/bobshepton

 

[GregOddity]

The Wash !

So after the “short range” bout of maladies of the tommy because of sins of the mouth, we had a beautiful day on the water with the Boat.
Well with the boat and water, as we need to scrub her to kingdom come to get rid of 36 years of weather and dust plus all else you can think. And it was so with Scrubs in hand that we did our “fitness “exercises on the First-class passenger deck of SV Oddity. And we scrubbed and scrubbed so that thankfully tomorrow we have some more to do. Portholes marked to be removed, washie washie on the insides to come as well and the removal of the rest of the middle bulkheads.
Also helped a somewhat not so young sailor for about an hour to move his boat to another mooring. It is something that I care passionately about, as our older brothers sometimes need a hand so they do not get themselves in arms way when there’s no need for it. Just a simple “would you like a hand? “suffices and were all going to get there.

And heres the culprit of our bout of side acne on the young lady.

This stringer was pouring water for 20m, it spurted out as we drilled.

On some more good news all the deck core is in good condition and dry.

 

[GregOddity]

Re: The Wash !

And a recap. This is how we found Oddity.

Forward cabin.

almost as it is now.