Boatyard won’t release boat

[Biggles Wader]

At the moment both buyer and seller are breaching the contract. Seller has not freed the boat from encumbrances and buyer hasn't paid the agreed price. If you pay the outstanding balance, the way will be clear to enforce the contract but I'd try face to face discussion first or you'll both end up paying legal fees which is in neither interest.

I understood the boat was to be delivered in the water ready to go for a trial sail before the final part of the payment was due so the buyer is not in breach. The seller is in breach having taken some(most) of the payment while the boat has encumbrances. The buyer is in the right but I suspect the problem might be one of enforcement. The seller has most of the money and has apparently spent it. What, in the real world, happens if he just decides to walk away?

 

[Neeves]

I'm sitting at the other end of the world and have lost touch with business practices in the UK. But we did run our own business in HK selling into China and HK. With our HK business we had terms of payment which we strictly enforced.

Now, as I've said, I've lost touch with how the UK economy works. But I would have thought marinas would issue invoices monthly, correct me if they only expect payment every 6 months, and that the monthly rental of a berth would be a few hundred stg. I know it might be expensive but in terms of the yacht's value - not that much. Who would berth in a marina where rental was more than a few hundred stg if the yacht was only worth a couple of thousand.

So surely the outstanding debt, in terms of the value of the yacht is really not significant. I understand the marina wants its cash - but surely 1 months rental is not large (but you would not want to change the rules and set an exception). And surely if you were retaining funds its not going to be chicken feed - or have I missed something.

The impression I extract is that the sums are more than chicken feed - why would a modern, professional 21st century business 'the marina' allow debts to accumulate that become a significant issue and an embarrassment.

Curious and puzzled

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

 

[Tranona]

I understood the boat was to be delivered in the water ready to go for a trial sail before the final part of the payment was due so the buyer is not in breach. The seller is in breach having taken some(most) of the payment while the boat has encumbrances. The buyer is in the right but I suspect the problem might be one of enforcement. The seller has most of the money and has apparently spent it. What, in the real world, happens if he just decides to walk away?

Neither are in breach - yet. The seller is only required to pay the bills when the boat is launched (or put on a truck as the OP has indicated) and the seller only pays the final bit when he is satisfied with the boat.

At the moment there are just "what ifs" related to either party not completing.

The yard has agreed to book the date for the lift and it is at that date bills are paid and final payment made. I guess the seller is hoping to pay his bills when he gets the retained funds so the sensible thing is for the 2 parties to agree the process and ensure that it satisfies the yard's requirements. As I explained earlier that is how it worked when I sold a boat in almost identical circumstances. The only question mark is about the seller's relationship with the yard and whether they accept his assurance he will settle on the day.

 

[HissyFit]

Neither are in breach - yet. The seller is only required to pay the bills when the boat is launched (or put on a truck as the OP has indicated) and the seller only pays the final bit when he is satisfied with the boat.

At the moment there are just "what ifs" related to either party not completing.

The yard has agreed to book the date for the lift and it is at that date bills are paid and final payment made. I guess the seller is hoping to pay his bills when he gets the retained funds so the sensible thing is for the 2 parties to agree the process and ensure that it satisfies the yard's requirements. As I explained earlier that is how it worked when I sold a boat in almost identical circumstances. The only question mark is about the seller's relationship with the yard and whether they accept his assurance he will settle on the day.

No encumbrances should have existed when the seller signed the bill of sale, otherwise what is the point of having that stipulation on the bill of sale? This was not the case, resulting in the buyer being unable to schedule the first launch.

 

[TopBanana]

You could try asking the yard for a settlement figure they would accept from you in order to release the boat. They don't have to tell you how much is owing from the seller

 

[Refueler]

No encumbrances should have existed when the seller signed the bill of sale, otherwise what is the point of having that stipulation on the bill of sale? This was not the case, resulting in the buyer being unable to schedule the first launch.

Psot #6 .....

Quote : I did use an RYA form and the seller has signed to say ‘the boat is free from encumbrances’.

So don't understand your post.

 

[penberth3]

.....The impression I extract is that the sums are more than chicken feed - why would a modern, professional 21st century business 'the marina' allow debts to accumulate that become a significant issue and an embarrassment.

Curious and puzzled

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

These things can easily drag on, promises to pay are made and not kept, business keeps trying, the amount increases. etc, etc,

 

[HissyFit]

Psot #6 .....

Quote : I did use an RYA form and the seller has signed to say ‘the boat is free from encumbrances’.

So don't understand your post.

The post I was replying to was stating that neither party was in breach. I pointed out that this was not the case. There is not contradiction with the post you quote.

 

[Caraway]

why would a modern, professional 21st century business 'the marina' allow debts to accumulate that become a significant issue and an embarrassment.

Not all marinas fit your descriprion.

 

[JumbleDuck]

If the seller has paid all boatyard fees up to the date of sale, would that not count as free of encumbrances. I see that the OP has retained against sea trials, bit does that imply that the seller is responsible for the costs of these trials?

The yard's stance on privacy intrigues me. If the relates to the seller, it's not the new owner's problem but if it relates to the boat s/he is surely entitled to details. "Money is owed for your boat but we won't tell you how much" seems ... odd.

 

[Refueler]

If the seller has paid all boatyard fees up to the date of sale, would that not count as free of encumbrances. I see that the OP has retained against sea trials, bit does that imply that the seller is responsible for the costs of these trials?

The yard's stance on privacy intrigues me. If the relates to the seller, it's not the new owner's problem but if it relates to the boat s/he is surely entitled to details. "Money is owed for your boat but we won't tell you how much" seems ... odd.

Quote :

I’ve asked the boatyard to move the boat onto a lorry in the next few weeks. They say they won’t because the previous owner has to settle his account (pay his bill).

: Unquote

Seems to me that implies marina account ... before sale. I could be wrong. Which would also explain why Marina will not pass the info to buyer.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Quote :

I’ve asked the boatyard to move the boat onto a lorry in the next few weeks. They say they won’t because the previous owner has to settle his account (pay his bill).

: Unquote

Seems to me that implies marina account ... before sale. I could be wrong. Which would also explain why Marina will not pass the info to buyer.

It seems to me to leave unclear whether the previous owner has undertaken to pay all bill up until the sale (which is what I would expect) or for an indefinite period beyond that (which seems less likely). But that's more of a side issue, because the marina really needs to decide whether the bill is attached to the boat (in which case the present owner has every right to know how much it is) or whether it is attached to the previous owner (in which case the new owner should expect them to launch). It's this half-and-half business which seems odd.

 

[Refueler]

It seems to me to leave unclear whether the previous owner has undertaken to pay all bill up until the sale (which is what I would expect) or for an indefinite period beyond that (which seems less likely). But that's more of a side issue, because the marina really needs to decide whether the bill is attached to the boat (in which case the present owner has every right to know how much it is) or whether it is attached to the previous owner (in which case the new owner should expect them to launch). It's this half-and-half business which seems odd.

The Buyer has withheld part of the sale price subject to test sail - so actually he is not New Owner yet. The Boat is still technically owned by seller until full payment or final solution agreed.

TBH - The whole affair has holes in it that really should never be.

 

[Tranona]

No encumbrances should have existed when the seller signed the bill of sale, otherwise what is the point of having that stipulation on the bill of sale? This was not the case, resulting in the buyer being unable to schedule the first launch.

The conditions of the contract have been met - the buyer is retaining some of the funds and the seller has not paid all the bills - he can't anyway as the contract says he has to pay all the bills until the boat is in the water to the satisfaction of the buyer. It is quite common for the seller to have unpaid bills even after the bill of sale has been signed. On my last purchase the Bill of Sale was signed and all the boat's documents passed to me when the boat was complete at the factory even though the dealer still had to pay for the shipping to UK and commissioning costs. With the previous boat purchase (in Greece) the BoS was signed about 3 months before the sale was complete because both buyers (wife and I) had to physically be in the Port Police office in Corfu for it to be validated. The sale was not complete until both parties had fulfilled their obligations under the contract which included paying for removal from the Greek register and paying the VAT.

In the case of the OP the seller will be in breach if he does not pay the bills.

 

[Tranona]

It seems to me to leave unclear whether the previous owner has undertaken to pay all bill up until the sale (which is what I would expect) or for an indefinite period beyond that (which seems less likely). But that's more of a side issue, because the marina really needs to decide whether the bill is attached to the boat (in which case the present owner has every right to know how much it is) or whether it is attached to the previous owner (in which case the new owner should expect them to launch). It's this half-and-half business which seems odd.

Nothing unusual about this arrangement. As I have explained earlier I sold my Eventide with the same arrangement with regard to paying the yard bills including launching. It is the contract that rules and the BofS reflects the state after all the terms of the contract have been met.

My only concerns here are that the seller may not be honest and much of the contract seems to be verbal rather than written. None of my agreement with the buyer were in writing, but the critical bit of who was responsible for yard bills was agreed in the yard office so they were clear who was paying for what.

 

[Bouba]

The conditions of the contract have been met - the buyer is retaining some of the funds and the seller has not paid all the bills - he can't anyway as the contract says he has to pay all the bills until the boat is in the water to the satisfaction of the buyer. It is quite common for the seller to have unpaid bills even after the bill of sale has been signed. On my last purchase the Bill of Sale was signed and all the boat's documents passed to me when the boat was complete at the factory even though the dealer still had to pay for the shipping to UK and commissioning costs. With the previous boat purchase (in Greece) the BoS was signed about 3 months before the sale was complete because both buyers (wife and I) had to physically be in the Port Police office in Corfu for it to be validated. The sale was not complete until both parties had fulfilled their obligations under the contract which included paying for removal from the Greek register and paying the VAT.

In the case of the OP the seller will be in breach if he does not pay the bills.

The problem is the boatyard won’t launch until the debt is cleared, so the buyer can’t complete his end of the transaction

 

[TernVI]

Anyone thinking that brokers sometimes earn their corn?

 

[pvb]

Anyone thinking that brokers sometimes earn their corn?

It sounds as if the OP's transaction was a DIY arrangement. If a broker had been involved, presumably they'd have checked if there were outstanding marina bills before releasing funds to the seller.

 

[Tranona]

The problem is the boatyard won’t launch until the debt is cleared, so the buyer can’t complete his end of the transaction

I know - I have read everything - but this is all in the future and there is nothing unusual about their attitude. It is just something the buyer is now aware of, but there may be nothing sinister and the seller may pay everything on time.

Just wait for the OP to discuss the situation with the seller. Suspect the whole problem will go away.

 

[Fanny Haddock]

Did no one state the obvious, "meet the seller at the marina office" then you can find out how much is owed.

How much did you pay, and how much have you held back?

The expenses & legalities (& delays) of the marina doing things the proper way are such that they won't be keen to and, come a certain point, will be glad to rid of it. You'll probably have to pay for the lift but shouldn't pay for anything else. You've no contract with them.