Boatyard won’t release boat

[Caraway]

..if the seller won't or can't settle the bill after you pay it, then he won't settle it before you eventually decide to pay it...

The previous owner has other things he has to spend the cash on. Don't give the money to him. The yard will never see it and you will have to pay to get the boat released.
However helpful the vendor is being, his time is free to him. The cash is spoken for and that does not include paying his boatyard bill..

 

[Refueler]

I would not have any formal dealings with the boatyard at all.

You have contracted to buy something that the seller cannot deliver.

It is up to him to either deliver it or be in breach of contract.

Absolutely agree.

Seller stipulated by signing agreement that no encumbrances. Therefore it is his responsibility and his alone to sort.

Buyer could have a 'friendly' chat with yard ... but at end of day - they want their money and that's it.

Until buyer coughs up 100% of agreed price on boat to seller - technically boat is not fully buyers property.

If buyer was to withhold the balance of sale price and give to Yard without Sellers agreement - that could lead to some interesting arguments.

At end of the day :

1. Seller lied in his sales agreement
2. Buyer has withheld part of the purchase money
3. Yard sees boat as still property or simply a tool to force someone to pay the outstanding bill.

So what I would do - lets be honest I would hopefully never be in this situation ... but lets say it was me ?

A. I would be pressuring seller to clear yard bill
B. I would make sure he understands that all delays in #A causing yard fees are for his account - or deduction from balance held.
C. Inform Yard that Seller has been contacted and that all bills to Seller.

Sorry but to post here - says to me that it needs sorting and its basically time for direct and specific statements .... not some verbal wishy washy yes affair that has no standing if one backs out.

To OP - nect boat you buy - bet you don't make this mistake again !!

 

[Tranona]

That doesn't butter parsnips if the OP wants to go sailing and the summer is slipping past.

Yes it does. If you do not follow the correct legal procedures you can end up worse off. While it may be a nuisance not to be able to go sailing the most important thing is to protect your money and ensure the seller fufils his part of the contract.

Actually, while it is useful to know what the implications are in this situation and the possible remedies, my view is that from what the OP has said it won't end up as a dispute. The OP has a retention to pay at least part of the bill if not all and the seller so far seems to have done every thing right including paying the storage up to launch or movement time. best approach now is to discuss the concerns with the seller and seek an amicable solution.

 

[penfold]

The only pertinent requirement is pleasing the boatyard; if there's an outstanding balance who pays it is irrelevant. That there is an outstanding balance means the sales contract is void and not worth the paper its written on, except maybe as a means of enriching lawyers arguing about it.

 

[pandos]

That there is an outstanding balance means the sales contract is void....

Not necessarily ..although it might be voidable at the behest of the OP....(big difference)

Op has not said what the balance or value of boat is...might be a storm on a teacup..r perhaps the bill exceeds value of the boat.

There is also the possibility the seller is unwilling to have the boat launched until he is fully paid....I certainly would tell the yard hang onto my boat until fully paid for.

 

[penberth3]

The only pertinent requirement is pleasing the boatyard; if there's an outstanding balance who pays it is irrelevant. That there is an outstanding balance means the sales contract is void and not worth the paper its written on, except maybe as a means of enriching lawyers arguing about it.

That's the point, though. If the OP somehow gets around the existing contractual impasse, it could complicate things if/when it goes legal. And it doesn't sound good when the seller more or less shrugs his shoulders and says he's "spent the money on something else".

 

[davidpbo]

Might the yard be due a commission on the sale as well? Not the O.P's responsibility I know, but might be a further problem if that has not been paid.

 

[penfold]

We are at an impasse until and unless the OP speaks to a sentient being at the yard and ascertains what the outstanding amount is; if it's less than the withheld payment then the solution is simple, if it's more then a frank exchange of views with the vendor is needed.

 

[Tranona]

The only pertinent requirement is pleasing the boatyard; if there's an outstanding balance who pays it is irrelevant. That there is an outstanding balance means the sales contract is void and not worth the paper its written on, except maybe as a means of enriching lawyers arguing about it.

It is nothing to do with pleasing the boatyard. The contract requires the seller to transfer the boat free of all encumbances ,does not need lawyers to be paid for that - just basic knowledge of the law of contract which yyou can get from a simple textbook that costs less than £10. It is the fundamental law that governs the buying and selling of goods.

The seller is responsible for settling the yard bills as he is the one with the contract with the yard.

Once you know the basic relationships and the wording of the contract (which does not have to written) you can plan the course of action. The contract as described by OP is for the boat to be delivered in the water and after sea trials. He has retained part of the payment to be released when this condition is met. If the seller is unable to complete because the yard won't release the boat then the correct course is to notify the seller of non performance and advise that the retention will be used to pay the bills. If the bills are less than the retention then the seller will get the balance, if more then he can take action to recover the balance from the seller.

In reality it probably won't come to this as pretty sure it can be resolved by amicable discussion, but the OP's position is greatly strengthened by knowing what his rights are.

In my experience most of consumer disputes arise because the buyer (and sometimes the seller - even big organisations) do not understand contract or consumer rights. Buying and selling boats privately is normally pretty straightforward if you follow the rules that you can find on the RYA site for example or books on the subject and there is no need to resort to lawyers. However sometimes large sums are involved and if things are not going smoothly as in this case, if one is not confident about rights it is worth seeking advice for example from the RYA

 

[steveeasy]

Now this could end up a mess. Id trust no one. dont hand any money to the original boatowner and all dialog must be in writing from now. might well be pleasant but really its a mess.
Steveeasy

 

[thinwater]

If the fall back is the the marina want you to pay outstanding bills - they will need to tell you how much.

Seems pretty simple to me - and their reluctance seems odd.

Jonathan

If they are saying the lean is against the boat, they have to tell the owner (you). Or they don't have a lean. So they either have to launch the boat (which is yours and they have no right to hold) and go after the other guy, or claim they have a lean and tell you the details of the lean. One or the other, not both.

You could also go to the seller, ask for your money back and give him the boat. He did not complete the sale.

 

[penberth3]

Now this could end up a mess. Id trust no one. dont hand any money to the original boatowner and all dialog must be in writing from now. might well be pleasant but really its a mess.
Steveeasy

It is a mess, it's going to be an interesting thread!

 

[Neeves]

It is a mess, it's going to be an interesting thread!

I hope not.

Based on what we have been told - it could be cleared up within hours.

Original owner pays debt, boat is released - simple.

Or retained funds are more than enough to pay debt - funds used to pay of marina - change given to original owner, boat is released. Simple.

Its not a mess until we know what the relevant amounts of monies are and the original owner turns out to be less than reputable.

If the new owner is less than reputable then I wonder where he intends keeping his new boat.

Jonathan

 

[steveeasy]

How do you avoid falling in to the same trap. You enter in to a contract where the seller confirms no liens are held on the vessel, but has lied. why should a business even discuss any debt owed by another customer. and unless I am wrong, this bill of sale is not completed because the transaction has not taken place.(fully). So the seller is massively in the wrong if he holds on to the funds. He cant legally sell with the lien held on the vessle. He needs to wake up and act swiftly by paying his debt or handing the buyers cash back. surely hes acted fraudulently. might well be a nice chap. Hes a scoundrel for spending the money.
Steveeasy

 

[Tranona]

I hope not.

Based on what we have been told - it could be cleared up within hours.

Original owner pays debt, boat is released - simple.

Or retained funds are more than enough to pay debt - funds used to pay of marina - change given to original owner, boat is released. Simple.

Its not a mess until we know what the relevant amounts of monies are and the original owner turns out to be less than reputable.

If the new owner is less than reputable then I wonder where he intends keeping his new boat.

Jonathan

+1

The OP has said that the seller has been good to deal with so far and the issue has only arisen because he asked the boatyard to book a lift to remove the boat and was advised that the bills must be settled first. The seller has already agreed to settle the bills. There is no lien on the boat and what has been said is perfectly proper. The situation only changes when it gets to the point of removing the boat, so the OP is right to consider what his options are. He has done everything by the book so far so no point in considering taking the drastic steps suggested by some here. For example does not make sense to use the retention except as a last resort - that is intended to cover any problems discovered after the sea trial (according to the contract).

The first step is to discuss with the seller when and how he intends settling the yard bills, bearing in mind he has agreed to pay up until removal. Would be helpful to then both go to the yard and and inform them of the agreement. That is exactly what I did (as I described earlier) when I sold a boat on the same terms. Then all three parties know where they stand. Disputes escalate when people start jumping ahead rather than trying to resolve things amicably.

 

[Neeves]

+1

The OP has said that the seller has been good to deal with so far and the issue has only arisen because he asked the boatyard to book a lift to remove the boat and was advised that the bills must be settled first. The seller has already agreed to settle the bills. There is no lien on the boat and what has been said is perfectly proper. The situation only changes when it gets to the point of removing the boat, so the OP is right to consider what his options are. He has done everything by the book so far so no point in considering taking the drastic steps suggested by some here. For example does not make sense to use the retention except as a last resort - that is intended to cover any problems discovered after the sea trial (according to the contract).

The first step is to discuss with the seller when and how he intends settling the yard bills, bearing in mind he has agreed to pay up until removal. Would be helpful to then both go to the yard and and inform them of the agreement. That is exactly what I did (as I described earlier) when I sold a boat on the same terms. Then all three parties know where they stand. Disputes escalate when people start jumping ahead rather than trying to resolve things amicably.

That is what I implied
I quote

'It could be cleared up within hours'

It is very simple - the seller has said he will pay whatever is required. When this does not occur then there is another scenario - until then - it is simple, No need for panic, fear (this is not an anchor thread) nor big sticks.

Be patient.

Jonathan

 

[RichardS]

That is what I implied
I quote

'It could be cleared up within hours'

It is very simple - the seller has said he will pay whatever is required. When this does not occur then there is another scenario - until then - it is simple, No need for panic, fear (this is not an anchor thread) nor big sticks.

Be patient.

Jonathan

Indeed.

It is so obvious that an amicable resolution, i.e. previous owner settles marina bill, will always be the best solution that it does not need to be specifically stated.

After that, the value of the retained monies becomes a key issue as said in #5.

Richard

 

[Bouba]

What if the seller is in dispute with the boatyard? The seller may not acknowledge that there is a debt

 

[RichardS]

What if the seller is in dispute with the boatyard? The seller may not acknowledge that there is a debt

There could be a million "what ifs" but unless we are advised of the details we cannot suggest solutions.

Richard

 

[ghostlymoron]

At the moment both buyer and seller are breaching the contract. Seller has not freed the boat from encumbrances and buyer hasn't paid the agreed price. If you pay the outstanding balance, the way will be clear to enforce the contract but I'd try face to face discussion first or you'll both end up paying legal fees which is in neither interest.