Boat prices?

[Colvic Watson]

But fast forward 35 yrs and weather forecasters can seemingly predict the sun coming out to the nearest 2 to 3 minutes. So that element of solidity/protection against the unknown has gone a little, IMHO. And so, to me, it's not just these boats ages but the type of boats people want for their sailing needs. A contessa 32 is now 'small' with peoples wants/needs changing inside the cabin too.

Wise words, the definition of a 'proper' boat has changed. But I would contend that the Contessa never justified her reputation as a yardstick boat. The 26 is dismally wet, cramped and really rather slow; the 32 is astonishingly cramped for a 26 footer - but she's 32 feet long! No toilet compartment, just a gap between the saloon and the fore cabin is forgivable in a 24 footer but in a 32 footer?
Anyway, a couple of yachting jurnos had them and they are pretty boats, plus this strange half truth that they're still being built today has given them a mythical status. In reality the market has found them out for what they are - cramped, wet, slowish - just like lots of other 1970's designs. It makes sense buying a 30 footer from the 70's/80's if your paying £7k, the cost/reward equation is very good. But if that boat costs £15k but is no better than the others? All the AWB's finding their way into the secondhand market has wrecked the market for older design boats, unless they cost very little they just won't sell, when you can buy a HR312 for £30k...
And they still churn out all these new AWB's every year, GRP doesn't rot and the size of the boating population hasn't increased, so something's got to give.

 

[doug748]

True, I think.

There is a market for most classes but not as lively as it once was. As we know boats below 25 feet are almost given away in some cases, particularly those needing work. This is not a council of despair but there is a bind for the owner: if you curtail spending and let the boat wind down your resale potential falls into the bargain bracket; if you update and maintain, you will only get back a small part of your investment.

I prefer to spend the cash and don't worry a lot. Most of the depreciation has already been done. I bought my boat in 1994 for 25k at the time I could have bought a modernish terraced house for 27k; looking at these figures I can spend the odd 5k here and there to no great disadvantage and it does not matter a lot if the boat is worth 10k or 30k when the grim reaper calls.

The market will pick up but not to previous levels - for all the reasons mentioned. Looking on the bright side, committed youngsters have never had a better chance of owning their own boats and very good ones at that.

 

[[23929]]

I used to run a brokerage and I can assure you the first real offer you get is invariably the best, so, take it.

On the broader issue, it is worth looking at this article by Paul Hodges:
http://moneyweek.com/paul-hodges-interview-the-great-unwinding/

It describes the great unwinding. Boats prices are collateral damage and it is not surprising to see so many boats on the market for year after year.

This is part of the interview:

Paul Hodges: The new normal is based on the fact – which, personally, I think everybody watching this interview will welcome – that life expectancy has grown by 20 to 25 years over the last century and as a result we now have nearly one in two of adult population over the age of 55.

The corollary of that, as you and I have discussed many times, is that people over the age of 55 already have everything they need and they’re moving, therefore, into a world where their needs are lowering and also their incomes are going down, so you cannot possibly get growth. It’s a very simple argument; it seems to be very obvious to me. Therefore, that is the new normal.

I don’t think it’s a bad thing if you go through life. My life, personally: born after the war, vast numbers of baby boomers born in the UK; 900,000 babies are born a year, on average, for 25 years. You came into London; most of it was bombed out – literally bomb sites and everything else – and so you had a tremendous supply problem just to catch up, because factories had been bombed and everything after the war, but all this demand from us babies coming through.

Then, from 1983 or so onwards, what you found was that gradually we began to get jobs, and we began to earn some money and, yes, our demand was very steady because there were so many of us, but also we were creating supply, and so you went into this second normal of disinflation. We peaked at 20% or so and now we came down.

Now we’re in the third normal, which is the new normal, where we now have this older generation who are going to live for 20 or 30 years, and we are going to go into deflation because we’ve got all the supply left over from when we were consuming like mad, but we don’t have the demand anymore.

A few other points, non of which help prices of average boats:

Right now, the Euro is very weak, so, buyers from the entire Euro currency market are absent.

The mortgage market has been very much tightened and even with very low interest rates, raising finance against a house is a non starter for most. Buyers need the cash in the bank.

There is a surplus of used boats.

 

[sailorman]

There is a boat for sale locally that is the same £s as one in Holland priced in €s The English one is one cost £17k more. Who`s price is wrong

 

[[23929]]

There is a boat for sale locally that is the same £s as one in Holland priced in €s The English one is one cost £17k more. Who`s price is wrong

Assuming they are in the same condition and have the same spec, the UK boat is £17k over priced.

 

[sailorman]

Both on brokerage

 

[[23929]]

Both on brokerage

Sorry, I'm a bit confused. Is this the same boat or two boats the same?

 

[duncan99210]

When we were looking at boats before leaving UK six years ago, we looked at both older boats (Moody, Westerly) and the modern AWBs. We found that we were looking at twenty to thirty year old boats with an asking price of £60k: all needed work, so more so than others but it would have cost us another £15-20k to bring the boat up to the specification we needed. In comparison, the AWBs on offer were ten years old or less, needed little or no work and therefore represented much better value for money for us.
Why raise this? It's because there's no such thing as a proper price or value for anything. There is merely what someone is prepared to pay at that moment to acquire it. If the price a vendor puts on the article is too high, then it will not sell. If the price is about the level the market will support then the article will sell itself quickly. These prices have nothing whatsoever to do with what the vendor paid for the item, not for how much money has been spent on it since the original purchase. It's all down to what a buyer will pay at that instant in time.
At the moment, there is still a feeling within the economy that things are somewhat tight. This means that whereas say ten years ago someone would be prepared to spend a fair amount on an older boat there is less incentive to do so today. In my original example, why would I want to buy a twenty to thirty year old boat for the same money as a ten year old one? And still have needed to spend yet more to modernise it?
I think that the market has changed in the last few years and the end effect has been that the older boats, which used to hold their value over the years, have seen the end of this plateau in value and I doubt if it will ever recover.

 

[sailorman]

Sorry, I'm a bit confused. Is this the same boat or two boats the same?

2 different boats in different countries with different brokers

 

[Zagato]

Some random thoughts!

With the majority of people unable to afford there first home until they are 35-40, and with existing home owners still having to work until they are 65+, 30-40k is too much for many to justify. 10-15k on a new car with payments is the nicest "toy" many will achieve.

Those more financially successful people are just too busy in an increasing competing job market to go sailing on the odd occasion the forecast suits their limited leave time. The business owners are also pulling back the reins on company owned boating jollies.

Has the image, culture and draw of sailing changed over the years, are enough youngsters getting into sailing!? Similar to the decline of golf maybe...

How will this effect the related trades? Will we see the end of overinflated prices for some goods just because it's for marine use and will we see the end of some overinflated labour prices...

Oh and some more niche lower production, lower new cost boats are still holding their value well :encouragement:

 

[sailorman]

There seem to be young families in The Netherlands owning all types & ages of boats, enjoying the experience too but then again mooring a boat is much much cheaper there

 

[pvb]

It seems there are many owners of older Moody, Westerly, etc, boats who feel their boats are worth huge sums because they're somehow "more solid" or "better built" than modern alternatives. Sorry, but that's dreaming.

 

[doug748]

There seem to be young families in The Netherlands owning all types & ages of boats, enjoying the experience too but then again mooring a boat is much much cheaper there

Is it?

You hear a lot about people keeping boats in France but not so much in Holland. Anyone do this, how does it rate?

 

[Athene V30]

I sold my 1986 vintage Vancouver 274 in just 2 months to the first viewer. Boat was immaculate. Having only had the boat for 15 months she was in better condition than when I bought her (TLC not ££ spent) and I sold her for more than I paid so was very pleased.

 

[Stork_III]

Is it?

You hear a lot about people keeping boats in France but not so much in Holland. Anyone do this, how does it rate?

Here is a price list for Port Zealande on the Grevelingenmeer, one of the more expensive marinas.

http://www.mpz.nl/startpagina/prijslijst

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

I agree prices are at Rock bottom and people are over mortgaged and all that, but think the real problem is that only a few youngsters in this country now have the dream to go sailing, or camping for that matter! I got married in the 1960's at 32. I had had to save 25% of thr purchase price to get a mortgage, but my wife and I were determined to go sailing because we both had the wish. We purchased a plywood Debutante for a cheap price, replaced a lot of rot, towed her behind a second hand A90 ( more rotten than the boat!) but sailed her between Torquay and Sharpness. Over 40 years later we still have the bug. Where there's a will there's a way. Today's youth don't have that dream. They have been conditioned to gap years, holidays on safari, stag parties in Prague and so on, so no money left for yachting!

 

[Tranona]

They have been conditioned to gap years, holidays on safari, stag parties in Prague and so on, so no money left for yachting!

It is not no money left for yachting - they just choose to spend their money in a different way. Rather than scrimping and saving to get an old Debutante and a rotten A90 they scrimp and save for a Golf GTI and 2 weeks in the Maldives - neither of which were available to you in your youth! Or mine - I only ran to a week in Ibiza in the winter with my scrimping.

 

[sailorman]

It is not no money left for yachting - they just choose to spend their money in a different way. Rather than scrimping and saving to get an old Debutante and a rotten A90 they scrimp and save for a Golf GTI and 2 weeks in the Maldives - neither of which were available to you in your youth! Or mine - I only ran to a week in Ibiza in the winter with my scrimping.

And how many of those still live & sponge off Mum n Dad, paying little or no keep.But go clubbing in Ibza with all their so called friends with alcohol & drugs fuelled nights totally out of control

 

[[23929]]

I agree prices are at Rock bottom and people are over mortgaged and all that,

Near zero interest rates have killed any savings returns and increased the price of an average house relative to salary to a staggeringly level (fueled by a boom in available credit), especially in the SE and London. We are now seeing the flip side of the oft celebrated "ever rising house prices" which is that the mortgage interest and capital repayments suck out way, way too much money from the economy leaving precious little spare cash for buying yachts.

 

[Tranona]

And how many of those still live & sponge off Mum n Dad, paying little or no keep.But go clubbing in Ibza with all their so called friends with alcohol & drugs fuelled nights totally out of control

Probably just as many as did similar things 50 years ago.