Boat fixations

[LittleSister]

It just goes to a quadrant under the deck. Stays attached and you just press auto and standby on the controller in the normal way.

Obviously the RAM arm is completely different.

If a wheel pilot is out of your price range then do not even think of a below decks type as even before you think about fitting it the hardware alone is twice the price. The fundamental difference is that the below decks drives , whether they be ram or rotary have a clutch to engage/disengage. Even the wheel pilot does not have this, being engaged by a friction mechanism on the belt.

. . . Raymarine's "solution" for larger tiller steered boats is to use the more sophisticated electronics of the below decks type but with a more powerful ram than the normal tillerpilot, but seem to have accepted it is not possible to design a reliable clutch operated one for external use. There is a French make that does offer this and used on the hot shoe racers, but the cost is eyewatering compared with the Raymarine and B&G gear

Thanks, now I understand. It was the 'clutch' arrangement I was trying to understand.

I was naively assuming the under deck ones were just ordinary tiller pilots connected through some separate connect/disconnect arrangement, and it was the latter I was trying to understand. I now see the under-deck types are a completely different device kettle of fish (and price bracket!) to the tillerpilots, with some sort of built in clutch.

The biggest practical constraint to fitting a below decks type drive is access to the rudder stock to fit the arm or a quadrant as traditionally the stock is in a tube full of seawater with no exposed stock. modern performance boats like flaming refers to are specifically designed with the stock going into a sealed tube just like a wheel steered boat with enough stock exposed to fit the steering arm. Some with twin rudders have exposed linkage to the 2 stocks and the drive operates on the linkage. On some boats like the one illustrated mount the drive in a locker, often using a "Python" or cable drive through flexible bellows to an arm on the existing tiller.

The LM27 (and other LM motor sailers) have a partially exposed shaft with two quadrants under the aft deck, one connected to the rudder (and removable tiller), and one connected to the wheel, and the two quadrants can simply be latched together or unlatched.

I was fantasising about a third quadrant, driven by a tillerpilot, which could separately (concentrically) be latched to the rudder quadrant, though the length of the lever arm required/ram arm gearing is a major stumbling block. (Someone who was a whizz at machining gears (which I'm not) could either change the ram arm gearing, or have the tillerpilot motor driving the quadrant directly and dispense with the ram arm altogether.
.

 

[johnalison]

The idea of two wheels each controlling one rudder sounds fun!

A recipe for marital disharmony perhaps?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

A recipe for marital disharmony perhaps?

Not to mention arguments between helm and tactician

 

[john_morris_uk]

I think it was my video which started this thread which has drifted off but my latest video addresses some of my feelings about Raymarine products which are not quite what they seem. Re my 2 wheel comments, the video was mainly being viewed by fairly inexperienced sailors and I wanted to point out that when sail boats have two wheels it is generally because they are pretty tender and will heel a lot leaving a central rudder partly out of the water so the designer installs two rudders! My opinion is that this makes the boat harder for the beginner with lightly crewed 'family' boat a bit more challenging.
If your interested in my rather expensive short cruise then go to the link below but if your not - don't!

Sorry but it wasn’t your video that I was referring to.

 

[mjcoon]

A recipe for marital disharmony perhaps?

Yes, like rowing with each sticking an oar in...

 

[mjcoon]

I don't get the fuss on self talking winches,

I know that was a typo, of course. But it does remind me of my mate during a flotilla informal race. We were close reaching, in both senses. He spun a winch by hand, just to rattle the pawls. This was to convince our close competition that we were going to tack, to force them to do so, so they tacked in anticipation. We were not going to tack, but now had extra elbow-room!

 

[Concerto]

Didn’t I read in one his posts that he overtook a Dragonfly 28?

This was achieved despite him having barely slept in the preceding 24 hours on account of having run out of fuel somewhere near Dungeoness

You are correct. Beating up the Medway I caught and passed a Dragonfly 28. It was hard work as I was singlhnded and they were 2 up, but I could point higher with a similar boat speed. The following day I did chat with the owner and he said his biggest problem was almost stopping at every tack. Once sheeting in, he would get up to speed very quickly. I very much doubt I would keep up on a reach, but the beat was good fun as a challenge to "race" against a known fast boat.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

You are correct. Beating up the Medway I caught and passed a Dragonfly 28. It was hard work as I was singlhnded and they were 2 up, but I could point higher with a similar boat speed. The following day I did chat with the owner and he said his biggest problem was almost stopping at every tack. Once sheeting in, he would get up to speed very quickly. I very much doubt I would keep up on a reach, but the beat was good fun as a challenge to "race" against a known fast boat.

That is far from usual. I’d tactfully suggest he was still on the steep part of the learning curve. We don’t stop at every tack, and would have a VMG 50% higher than yours in anything below 30kn. The NHC numbers, ie based on real life performance, bear this out.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

That is far from usual. I’d tactfully suggest he was still on the steep part of the learning curve. We don’t stop at every tack, and would have a VMG 50% higher than yours in anything below 30kn. The NHC numbers, ie based on real life performance, bear this out.

You need to take into account the Fulmar Fabulousness Factor. It's at least 68% for sailing speed, 79% for seaworthiness & survivability and a whopping 112% for interior comfort. None of those factors are as high as the A22 however, which exceeds 189% in every aspect.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

You need to take into account the Fulmar boost factor. It's at least 68% for sailing speed, 79% for seaworthiness & survivability and a whopping 112% for interior comfort. None of those factors are as high as the A22 however, which exceeds 189% in every aspect.

Fulmars are fine boats. And quite a few DFs are bought by ex mono owners, and need to learn how it’s done. I suspect that, racer or not, multi experience wins out. It’s taken us both several thousand miles to feel we are getting the most from the boat, even though we are previous DF owners, and dyed in the wool multihullers.

 

[Stemar]

Am I right in thinking that the trick is to bear off to build up speed before tacking?

 

[johnalison]

(

Am I right in thinking that the trick is to bear off to build up speed before tacking?

I think the best technique would be to fold in the outriggers when tacking.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Am I right in thinking that the trick is to bear off to build up speed before tacking?

It might be in a cruising cat. Not on a Dragonfly. The trick there is to be properly hard on the wind, with the main in hard, straight leech, and the jib tighter than anyone except Flaming would have it, that's how you sail to windward. pick your moment in the wave pattern, sail her into the tack, release the jib only when it’s empty, more rudder at that point, sheet it in quickly on the new tack. The main may well need to be released at the apex, a) to help the boat bear off and b) to enable the battens to pop if the wind is light-ish or less. You don’t allow her to go too much below close hauled after the tack either, you can lose a lot of windward ground that way. The most common mistake with Dragonflys is not to sheet in hard enough. Unless you’re in less than 5kn, get the main leech straight, but don’t hook it. Traveller on the centreline unless you’re overpowered.

Fold the outriggers only if you’re an olympic swimmer.

 

[Concerto]

That is far from usual. I’d tactfully suggest he was still on the steep part of the learning curve. We don’t stop at every tack, and would have a VMG 50% higher than yours in anything below 30kn. The NHC numbers, ie based on real life performance, bear this out.

I feel the owners are not that experienced and certainly not racers, they even had a large German Shepherd onboard. There again I do try to get 90 to 95% of the possible performance out of my Fulmar most of the time, yet many cruising sailors are happy to poodle along at 50 to 60% so I am sailing with much longer boats. Many sailors have said I have a fast boat but I just shrug my shoulders and remember how poorly set their sails are. Why are so many people happy to just pull sails up and expect them to be correctly set. The learning curve for setting sails well, but not perfectly, is not difficult. Understanding the combination of rig tension and using tell tails seems to elude many cruising sailors.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I feel the owners are not that experienced and certainly not racers, they even had a large German Shepherd onboard. There again I do try to get 90 to 95% of the possible performance out of my Fulmar most of the time, yet many cruising sailors are happy to poodle along at 50 to 60% so I am sailing with much longer boats. Many sailors have said I have a fast boat but I just shrug my shoulders and remember how poorly set their sails are. Why are so many people happy to just pull sails up and expect them to be correctly set. The learning curve for setting sails well, but not perfectly, is not difficult. Understanding the combination of rig tension and using tell tails seems to elude many cruising sailors.

That is very evident to us too. Getting from A to B efficiently is our aim when cruising. We won’t be standing by the winch, adjusting the sheets in the gusts like we do when racing, but the luff tension will be good, the sails sheeted in to a damn good compromise and the runners will be set for the wind strength. And we steer to the telltales always, plus the wind instruments to make sure. The result is normally that we destroy any cruising yachts around us. Some, like yourself, give us slightly more pause for thought, but, unless your boat grows by 15ft and gets itself some 3Di sails, you won’t be catching us.

 

[doug748]

i think the only real dealbreaker for me would be self tailing winches.
my boat doesnt have them, and i really wish it did.
i experienced self tailing winches on my instruction boat, but my own doesnt have them, they are sooo much easier to use than my own.

Just shows, I have never been fussed about self tailing winches on a small boat.
Certainly not to pay a large premium, £1000 a pop for me

Sums up the whole thread.

Steering wheels,on the other hand, are like wooden legs:
Wonderful if you need them but otherwise worth avoiding.

.

 

[BarrytheViking]

That is far from usual. I’d tactfully suggest he was still on the steep part of the learning curve. We don’t stop at every tack, and would have a VMG 50% higher than yours in anything below 30kn. The NHC numbers, ie based on real life performance, bear this out.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Just shows, I have never been fussed about self tailing winches on a small boat.
Certainly not to pay a large premium, £1000 a pop for me

Sums up the whole thread.

Steering wheels,on the other hand, are like wooden legs:
Wonderful if you need them but otherwise worth avoiding.

.

We have self tailers for folding etc, but our jib sheet winches are not. Those ones are also our halyard winches. I find a rope won’t actually self tail for 10 metres anyway, so don’t miss it for sheets and halyards.

 

[Bristolfashion]

The thing about cruising is that's it's not a race - some days are just pure pootling and others may have an aim - but not necessarily speed.

Sometimes it's more important to arrive rested or to give the crew an easy, relaxed experience.

We've had a couple of short jumps recently where the choice ('cos of tidal gates) was to anchor off, heave to or just sail really slowly near the attractive coastline with a cup of coffee - you can whiz past us and "destroy" us, but I reckon we were winning.

We also crossed Tor Bay & back with 2nd reefs in - when everyone else was under full sail - why? 'cos my 88 year old FIL was on board & a very comfortable sail was the priority.

We do ok if we need to crack on - but just 'cos you've gone past us doesn't mean you've won!

 

[flaming]

The thing about cruising is that's it's not a race - some days are just pure pootling and others may have an aim - but not necessarily speed.

Sometimes it's more important to arrive rested or to give the crew an easy, relaxed experience.

We've had a couple of short jumps recently where the choice ('cos of tidal gates) was to anchor off, heave to or just sail really slowly near the attractive coastline with a cup of coffee - you can whiz past us and "destroy" us, but I reckon we were winning.

We also crossed Tor Bay & back with 2nd reefs in - when everyone else was under full sail - why? 'cos my 88 year old FIL was on board & a very comfortable sail was the priority.

We do ok if we need to crack on - but just 'cos you've gone past us doesn't mean you've won!

Absolutely.

The time I feel that cruising sailors would be better served with better sail trim is in either the heavy, when I see too many flappy baggy sails and jibs not sheeted home on boats trying to make progress to windward. When better attention to sail trim would have them heeling less, going faster, and spending less time bashing to windward. Giving everyone on board a better experience. Sail trim isn't just about going faster, it's also about comfort.

And then in light winds, where more knowledge of sail trim would mean better progress in lighter winds, and less resorting to the engine to make the deadline....