Boat fixations

[flaming]

Autopilots are much stronger on wheel steered boats than tillers. Easy to set press AUTO with a wheel without having to set up if you have a tiller. You don't have to put it away either. A major consideration when cruising and a deal breaker for many single handers or couples.

Plenty of tiller steered boats, like mine, have below deck autopilots just like wheel steered boats.

 

[E39mad]

Plenty of tiller steered boats, like mine, have below deck autopilots just like wheel steered boats.

Ah OK - is it a ram arm or more like the mamba drive which can disengage from the below decks steering gear to reduce drag. Or is there something better these days?

 

[flaming]

Ah OK - is it a ram arm or more like the mamba drive which can disengage from the below decks steering gear to reduce drag. Or is there something better these days?

It's a standard ram arm.

 

[Tranona]

Plenty of tiller steered boats, like mine, have below deck autopilots just like wheel steered boats.

but only relatively recently and mostly on performance related boats. On the other hand there are thousands of substantial tiller steered cruising boats in the 30-35' size range where fitting a below decks pilot is impossible and the observation in post#40 is valid. Seem to remember a recent long thread on the subject.

 

[flaming]

but only relatively recently and mostly on performance related boats. On the other hand there are thousands of substantial tiller steered cruising boats in the 30-35' size range where fitting a below decks pilot is impossible and the observation in post#40 is valid. Seem to remember a recent long thread on the subject.

Given the thread started with a specification for twin wheels, I assumed we were talking about modern boats....
Older boats are often more complicated to retro fit, for sure, but seldom impossible. I've seen, for example, a boat with a transom hung rudder where the ram exited the transom through a waterproof bellows type arrangement to push directly on the rudder.

 

[Koeketiene]

A YouTube film that landed in my suggested viewing list got me thinking. It’s a well-known YouTuber who is into sailing and has a fair amount of experience by all accounts. He produced a video on what boat to buy which is more like what things to look out for when you buy a boat with a certain price range. what struck me about the video was his absolute assistance that he would never buy a boat with only one wheel. It got me thinking about how fixed some people are in their preferences as regards sailing. I can’t imagine being without a chart table and I know some others who hate spade rudders. Lots of other examples.

The video I saw also had the Youtuber saying he wouldn’t buy any boat over a few years old as it would be uninsurable.

I’m not going to promote his YouTube channel but I wondered what the red flags are for others when it comes to buying a new or second hand boat?

Things I want to avoid when considering a boat (probably showing my age):

1. in mast/boom furling
2. twin helm stations - actually prefer a tiller
3. Volvo engines
4. high freeboard
5. spade rudder
6. bolt-on keel
7. no (forward looking) chart table
8. portholes in the hull

 

[johnalison]

but only relatively recently and mostly on performance related boats. On the other hand there are thousands of substantial tiller steered cruising boats in the 30-35' size range where fitting a below decks pilot is impossible and the observation in post#40 is valid. Seem to remember a recent long thread on the subject.

I didn't know that a below-decks option was possible on my boat when I ordered it. In retrospect, it would have been nice, but I don't see it as a clincher, Whether I would have ordered it as an expensive option at the time I'm not sure, possibly yes. As it stands, the autopilot works perfectly well. It is not hard to set the arm up in place and I have put a clip on the pushpit so that I can just swing in to and fro from its resting position.

My 34 was designed around a tiller and early wheel versions intruded into the aft cabin, later modified. I have sailed on a wheeled version on a friend's boat. The wheel would have been helpful on long offwind legs, when I tend to get a stiff neck from looking ahead, but would have been less satisfying and less sheltered when sailing to windward, but the wheeled version messes up the generous cockpit and is awkward to get round. It is very much a case of having whichever the boat was designed round. I had a 26' Mystere for many years. This had a wheel and was designed round it, so the cockpit worked fine. The steering was very sensitive, but I never fully got rid of some play in the system. Some owners converted theirs to tillers, which I thought was a mistake.

 

[Skylark]

Wanted Extras …. The more the merrier

Electric or Hydraulic bathing platform.

Surely, this should be mandatory.

The other mandatory, fortunately well catered for by French built boats, is a high number of built-in wine racks.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Dragonfly seem to agree with you ...

View attachment 181034

Selling a million pound yacht with a tiller is probably impossible these days.

 

[Supertramp]

Interesting how differently people sail, and therefore the different preferences.

I completely agree about tillers being better than wheels. But as I mainly singlehand, and sail longer passages, I rarely hand steer. So the quality and ease of autopilot operation is more important to me. Mine is a Lewmar Mamba unit, sited below deck and driving the quadrant by rods. Instant one button activation. A revelation. I also like the wheel because I can lock it instantly, eg when anchoring or heaving to.

But if i was setting up for offshore sailing I would want a Hydrovane with its steering blade which then makes bathing platforms difficult.

All down to personal choices and compromise. I do like a comfortable place(s) to sleep, and a spacious galley and toilet. I spend more time at anchor or in a marina than actually sailing so comfort matters.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

My neighbour’s 57 ft gaffer is a bloody pig to steer with it’s 5ft tiller

 

[RunAgroundHard]

I dont agree with tiller, wheel better claims. Boats can be sailed efficiently with both, irrespective of feedback to the helm. Having sailed with both, on many different types of yachts, sail area, trim, tell tales, wind speed and boat speed are significantly more important for achieving efficiency, and optimum sailing than tiller or wheel.

My centre cockpit tub, has a wheel and a number of bevel gear boxes before the rudder gets to steer the boat. I use spoke position from rudder centre to gauge weather helm, just as effective as tiller pressure feedback. I have raced with excellent and successful helms, and all make micro movements of the rudder to optimize speed, unless working waves is required, even then it was small movements, wheel or tiller.

I agree that dual wheels on wide stern boats is better than a huge single wheel and I do prefer the space between dual wheels for cockpit living, and folding the tiller up, out the way. The wheel in my cockpit gets in the way when not sailing, in what is a small cockpit.

 

[Stemar]

i think the only real dealbreaker for me would be self tailing winches.
my boat doesnt have them, and i really wish it did.
i experienced self tailing winches on my instruction boat, but my own doesnt have them, they are sooo much easier to use than my own.

Would you spend £87 to get something close?

Barton Wincher

Stupid money for what they are, but I had them on my old boat and they do work. Not as well as a proper self-tailer, but way better than nothing

 

[trapper guy]

Would you spend £87 to get something close?

Barton Wincher

Stupid money for what they are, but I had them on my old boat and they do work. Not as well as a proper self-tailer, but way better than nothing

i absolutely would spend £87 to try them out for sure.
i never considered that anything like that would be available, and considering the prices of goods at the average swindlery, they are rather reasonably priced, for boat stuff, you know what im getting at.

 

[johnalison]

I dont agree with tiller, wheel better claims. Boats can be sailed efficiently with both, irrespective of feedback to the helm.

From my limited experience of sailing a friend's 40' boat with hydraulic wheel steering, I would say that is true. Even with zero feedback it was possible to sail reasonably efficiently to windward, ie not very well in that tub.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Interesting how differently people sail, and therefore the different preferences.

I completely agree about tillers being better than wheels. But as I mainly singlehand, and sail longer passages, I rarely hand steer. So the quality and ease of autopilot operation is more important to me. Mine is a Lewmar Mamba unit, sited below deck and driving the quadrant by rods. Instant one button activation. A revelation. I also like the wheel because I can lock it instantly, eg when anchoring or heaving to.

But if i was setting up for offshore sailing I would want a Hydrovane with its steering blade which then makes bathing platforms difficult.

All down to personal choices and compromise. I do like a comfortable place(s) to sleep, and a spacious galley and toilet. I spend more time at anchor or in a marina than actually sailing so comfort matters.

I’ve never argued wheel is always better than tiller. It all depends. My original post was in response to a YouTube video where the advice (apparently aimed at new to boating buyers) was that he’d NEVER buy a boat with only one wheel.

Our boat is centre cockpit which rather rules out tiller steering. It has a wheel, a very good autopilot (direct to a quadrant on the rudder stock) and also a Hydrovane for long distant sailing.

It suits us but never say never and our preferences might change one day.

 

[Tranona]

Given the thread started with a specification for twin wheels, I assumed we were talking about modern boats....
Older boats are often more complicated to retro fit, for sure, but seldom impossible. I've seen, for example, a boat with a transom hung rudder where the ram exited the transom through a waterproof bellows type arrangement to push directly on the rudder.

One can always find exceptions but there have been virtually no mainstream cruising boats over 30' built with tillers for over 20 years and certainly none where twin wheels would be a logical route to go. There are of course many examples (like the one given in post#47) where a wheel has been fitted to a boat that is clearly designed for a tiller. Equally when tillers and wheels are optional most people go for wheel for all the reasons given. When I ordered my Bavaria I was given the option of waiting a couple of months and having a twin wheel but decided on the single as it suited me better. Just like the crossover point tiller/wheel the single/twin creates anomalies, like the twin wheel version of my boat where it really did not work very well except for the arguably better access to the drop down transom. However more recent designs of similar size are almost exclusively twin wheel because the aft end of the boat is wider and flatter

 

[Chiara’s slave]

A while back, I recall seeing a wheel arrangement that kind of tacked. A single wheel that was exactly whete twin wheels would have been. The mechanism wasn’t that complex, not really more so than twin wheels. The idea being that it left more room in the cockpit than either single or twin.

 

[flaming]

One can always find exceptions but there have been virtually no mainstream cruising boats over 30' built with tillers for over 20 years and certainly none where twin wheels would be a logical route to go. There are of course many examples (like the one given in post#47) where a wheel has been fitted to a boat that is clearly designed for a tiller. Equally when tillers and wheels are optional most people go for wheel for all the reasons given. When I ordered my Bavaria I was given the option of waiting a couple of months and having a twin wheel but decided on the single as it suited me better. Just like the crossover point tiller/wheel the single/twin creates anomalies, like the twin wheel version of my boat where it really did not work very well except for the arguably better access to the drop down transom. However more recent designs of similar size are almost exclusively twin wheel because the aft end of the boat is wider and flatter

Yes... I'm not sure why you think I don't agree with any of that?

In the 30-35 performance world the trend is very much to tillers though, principally because the trend is to shorthanded racing, and a tiller is definitely preferable there.

 

[onesea]

i think the only real dealbreaker for me would be self tailing winches.
my boat doesnt have them, and i really wish it did.
i experienced self tailing winches on my instruction boat, but my own doesnt have them, they are sooo much easier to use than my own.

I don't get the fuss on self talking winches, I have sailed with them and find the friction from the cleating mechanism frustrating.
The only thing they are good for is trimming and halyards when led aft.

Deal breakers for me would depend on budget. It's about what I can afford, tiller is less to go wrong and suits my present sailing.