Boat fixations

[LittleSister]

Plenty of tiller steered boats, like mine, have below deck autopilots just like wheel steered boats.

It's a standard ram arm.

How is it engaged and disengaged, I'd be interested to know?

My boat (LM27) has a tiller pilot, but the layout and dimensions of the tiller/coaming/mainsheet track etc. make it less than ideal. It would be nice to get it under the aft deck. Although limited space makes that unlikely to be achievable, it's something I'd like to explore to check..

The boat can be steered by tiller from the cockpit, or by wheel from the wheelhouse. A wheel autopilot would be the obvious solution, but is beyond my means.

(The wheel can be disconnected from/reconnected to the rudder & tiller (to give lighter tiller steering) by peering under the aft deck and reaching in to lift/lower a simple latch that connects a freely rotating quadrant driven by the wheel to a quadrant fixed to the rudder post. A few owners have modified the latch mechanism to be more easily operated via a cable from the cockpit, and 'finds' the correct alignment of the two quadrants.)

 

[Poignard]

I once spent a few days in Excelsior, a 76-feet long Lowestoft fishing smack. She was tiller steered and wasn't heavy to steer.

I don't know why her designer/builder didn't feel it necessary to fit her with wheel steering. It can't have been an objection to machinery since she was fitted with a steam driven capstan.

Tiller steering was also commonly found in the sailing pilot cutters of the Bristol Chaneel and elsewhere.

Perhaps the attitude of working seamen was simply - why fit something when you don't need it?

 

[Blue Seas]

I would never consider tiller steering on a boat fitted with a spade anchor - for precisely the same reason as I would never fit a Rocna to a wheel steered boat (single or double).

 

[flaming]

How is it engaged and disengaged, I'd be interested to know?

My boat (LM27) has a tiller pilot, but the layout and dimensions of the tiller/coaming/mainsheet track etc. make it less than ideal. It would be nice to get it under the aft deck. Although limited space makes that unlikely to be achievable, it's something I'd like to explore to check..

The boat can be steered by tiller from the cockpit, or by wheel from the wheelhouse. A wheel autopilot would be the obvious solution, but is beyond my means.

(The wheel can be disconnected from/reconnected to the rudder & tiller (to give lighter tiller steering) by peering under the aft deck and reaching in to lift/lower a simple latch that connects a freely rotating quadrant driven by the wheel to a quadrant fixed to the rudder post. A few owners have modified the latch mechanism to be more easily operated via a cable from the cockpit, and 'finds' the correct alignment of the two quadrants.)

It just goes to a quadrant under the deck. Stays attached and you just press auto and standby on the controller in the normal way.

 

[trapper guy]

I don't get the fuss on self talking winches, I have sailed with them and find the friction from the cleating mechanism frustrating.
The only thing they are good for is trimming and halyards when led aft.

Deal breakers for me would depend on budget. It's about what I can afford, tiller is less to go wrong and suits my present sailing.

they are good for looking after the tail of the rope, when ideally, conditions dictate one hand on the winch handle and the other holding onto something solid, for balance. as it stands i have to hold the tail end of the rope to keep it tight so that it doesnt slip on the drum, it can be, and has proven to be tricky in turbulent water

 

[johnalison]

It just goes to a quadrant under the deck. Stays attached and you just press auto and standby on the controller in the normal way.

You say normal way but my Raymarine steering arm is locked on standby, so presumably there is something different in the set-up.

 

[flaming]

You say normal way but my Raymarine steering arm is locked on standby, so presumably there is something different in the set-up.

Every boat with a plumbed in autohelm I've ever sailed with is not locked on standby... Normal for an under deck plumbed in system, not a tiller pilot is what I mean.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I once spent a few days in Excelsior, a 76-feet long Lowestoft fishing smack. She was tiller steered and wasn't heavy to steer.

I don't know why her designer/builder didn't feel it necessary to fit her with wheel steering. It can't have been an objection to machinery since she was fitted with a steam driven capstan.

Tiller steering was also commonly found in the sailing pilot cutters of the Bristol Chaneel and elsewhere.

Perhaps the attitude of working seamen was simply - why fit something when you don't need it?

Thames barges too. Perhaps it has come to pass that Gentlemen steer with a wheel.

 

[Sea Devil]

I think it was my video which started this thread which has drifted off but my latest video addresses some of my feelings about Raymarine products which are not quite what they seem. Re my 2 wheel comments, the video was mainly being viewed by fairly inexperienced sailors and I wanted to point out that when sail boats have two wheels it is generally because they are pretty tender and will heel a lot leaving a central rudder partly out of the water so the designer installs two rudders! My opinion is that this makes the boat harder for the beginner with lightly crewed 'family' boat a bit more challenging.
If your interested in my rather expensive short cruise then go to the link below but if your not - don't!

 

[flaming]

I wanted to point out that when sail boats have two wheels it is generally because they are pretty tender and will heel a lot leaving a central rudder partly out of the water so the designer installs two rudders!

Sorry, that's not correct.

The number of wheels (or tillers) is not necessarily related to the number of rudders. I've sailed boats with twin wheels and single rudders, and now own one with one tiller and 2 rudders.

And having twin rudders is nothing to do with being tender. I'd put more than a few quid on my boat being less tender than a lot of single rudder boats. The desire to fit twin rudders is largely due to the width of the boat, and the fact that to have a single rudder on a wide boat you have to move it a long way forward in the boat in order to ensure it stays immersed when heeled as with a wide stern the point where the centreline is immersed moves forwards when heeled. Here's a sistership to mine showing what I mean.

In fact my boat was originally available with 1 or 2 rudders. And mine was originally fitted with a single blade and was changed after a couple of seasons by its first owner. The single blade lives in my garage now... But it's simply the case that 2 blades do a better job on fat bottomed boats. Except in the marina!

 

[Roberto]

what the red flags are for others when it comes to buying a new or second hand boat?

Teak decks, saildrive, mainsail roller furler, center cockpit, heavily swept back spreaders, deeply fractional rigs, transoms where one cannot fit a windvane... to name a few

 

[Tranona]

How is it engaged and disengaged, I'd be interested to know?

My boat (LM27) has a tiller pilot, but the layout and dimensions of the tiller/coaming/mainsheet track etc. make it less than ideal. It would be nice to get it under the aft deck. Although limited space makes that unlikely to be achievable, it's something I'd like to explore to check..

The boat can be steered by tiller from the cockpit, or by wheel from the wheelhouse. A wheel autopilot would be the obvious solution, but is beyond my means.

(The wheel can be disconnected from/reconnected to the rudder & tiller (to give lighter tiller steering) by peering under the aft deck and reaching in to lift/lower a simple latch that connects a freely rotating quadrant driven by the wheel to a quadrant fixed to the rudder post. A few owners have modified the latch mechanism to be more easily operated via a cable from the cockpit, and 'finds' the correct alignment of the two quadrants.)

If a wheel pilot is out of your price range then do not even think of a below decks type as even before you think about fitting it the hardware alone is twice the price. The fundamental difference is that the below decks drives , whether they be ram or rotary have a clutch to engage/disengage. Even the wheel pilot does not have this, being engaged by a friction mechanism on the belt.

The biggest practical constraint to fitting a below decks type drive is access to the rudder stock to fit the arm or a quadrant as traditionally the stock is in a tube full of seawater with no exposed stock. modern performance boats like flaming refers to are specifically designed with the stock going into a sealed tube just like a wheel steered boat with enough stock exposed to fit the steering arm. Some with twin rudders have exposed linkage to the 2 stocks and the drive operates on the linkage. On some boats like the one illustrated mount the drive in a locker, often using a "Python" or cable drive through flexible bellows to an arm on the existing tiller.

Raymarine's "solution" for larger tiller steered boats is to use the more sophisticated electronics of the below decks type but with a more powerful ram than the normal tillerpilot, but seem to have accepted it is not possible to design a reliable clutch operated one for external use. There is a French make that does offer this and used on the hot shoe racers, but the cost is eyewatering compared with the Raymarine and B&G gear

 

[Sea Devil]

Sorry, that's not correct.

The number of wheels (or tillers) is not necessarily related to the number of rudders. I've sailed boats with twin wheels and single rudders, and now own one with one tiller and 2 rudders.

And having twin rudders is nothing to do with being tender. I'd put more than a few quid on my boat being less tender than a lot of single rudder boats. The desire to fit twin rudders is largely due to the width of the boat, and the fact that to have a single rudder on a wide boat you have to move it a long way forward in the boat in order to ensure it stays immersed when heeled as with a wide stern the point where the centreline is immersed moves forwards when heeled. Here's a sistership to mine showing what I mean.

In fact my boat was originally available with 1 or 2 rudders. And mine was originally fitted with a single blade and was changed after a couple of seasons by its first owner. The single blade lives in my garage now... But it's simply the case that 2 blades do a better job on fat bottomed boats. Except in the marina!

I absolutely stand corrected but I don't think the average beginner family sailor is going to have the wife and kids on the rail trying to keep the boat upright! my video was intended for beginners - newbies to boating - Experienced sailors like you don't need my video.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

My wife is a pretty hardened racer, and she’d agree, if out for a family cruise. Which is one reason why we have a boat that doesn’t require crew on the rail, though that is fun to do if you want to.

 

[johnalison]

Every boat with a plumbed in autohelm I've ever sailed with is not locked on standby... Normal for an under deck plumbed in system, not a tiller pilot is what I mean.

I realise that, but the control panel looks the same from the front, which might lead someone only used to outside drives, like myself, to wonder.

 

[johnalison]

O

My wife is a pretty hardened racer, and she’d agree, if out for a family cruise. Which is one reason why we have a boat that doesn’t require crew on the rail, though that is fun to do if you want to.

Our children were known to sit out occasionally, but their chief duty was to tuck the deck-sweeping genny inside the lifelines after tacking, in the days before we had furling jibs.

 

[dunedin]

I think it was my video which started this thread which has drifted off but my latest video addresses some of my feelings about Raymarine products which are not quite what they seem. Re my 2 wheel comments, the video was mainly being viewed by fairly inexperienced sailors and I wanted to point out that when sail boats have two wheels it is generally because they are pretty tender and will heel a lot leaving a central rudder partly out of the water so the designer installs two rudders! My opinion is that this makes the boat harder for the beginner with lightly crewed 'family' boat a bit more challenging.
If your interested in my rather expensive short cruise then go to the link below but if your not - don't!

Well your statement "when sail boats have two wheels it is generally because they are pretty tender and will heel a lot leaving a central rudder partly out of the water so the designer installs two rudders!" is pretty much entirely wrong, so a bad start.
1) The vast majority of twin wheel boats have a single rudder.
2) There are a variety of other reasons why some boats have twin rudders - and many of these have tillers not twin wheels.
3) Wide beam boats generally heel LESS than traditional narrower boats, due to extra form stability.
4) Reasons for twin rudders vary but include more stable downwind, making space for a tender garage between rudder posts and even fashion.
Perhaps you need to do more research / thinking before trying to post videos purporting to give advice.

 

[Lucky Duck]

Ironically the Fulmar that you bought (which is a brilliant boat) was very much a very high volume, high freeboard, fat stern boat for its era, compared to earlier boats like Co 32 etc. Even compared to boats of the 2000s.

Didn’t I read in one his posts that he overtook a Dragonfly 28?

This was achieved despite him having barely slept in the preceding 24 hours on account of having run out of fuel somewhere near Dungeoness

 

[Tranona]

Well your statement "when sail boats have two wheels it is generally because they are pretty tender and will heel a lot leaving a central rudder partly out of the water so the designer installs two rudders!" is pretty much entirely wrong, so a bad start.
1) The vast majority of twin wheel boats have a single rudder.
2) There are a variety of other reasons why some boats have twin rudders - and many of these have tillers not twin rudders.
3) Wide beam boats generally heel LESS than traditional narrower boats, due to extra form stability.
4) Reasons for twin rudders vary but include more stable downwind, making space for a tender garage between rudder posts and even fashion.
Perhaps you need to do more research / thinking before trying to post videos purporting to give advice.

Agree completely. Good example of the "paradigm anchor" referred to earlier. Seeing things only from one perspective and not asking the question "why do some boats have 2 wheels" then working through to the answer.

Beginners to larger boat cruising often go through the med charter route, in which case they will have little option but to have a twin wheeled boat with a single rudder. They seem to manage OK.

 

[mjcoon]

I think it was my video which started this thread which has drifted off but my latest video addresses some of my feelings about Raymarine products which are not quite what they seem. Re my 2 wheel comments, the video was mainly being viewed by fairly inexperienced sailors and I wanted to point out that when sail boats have two wheels it is generally because they are pretty tender and will heel a lot leaving a central rudder partly out of the water so the designer installs two rudders! My opinion is that this makes the boat harder for the beginner with lightly crewed 'family' boat a bit more challenging.
If your interested in my rather expensive short cruise then go to the link below but if your not - don't!

The idea of two wheels each controlling one rudder sounds fun!