Blue Angel (Canados 70s) Rebuild thread

MapisM

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B, the point Vas and Deleted User are making is indeed valid, so you might well let the yard replicate the original Canados construction, enjoy the result, and be done with it.

That said, my personal view is that Canados privileged form over function, back in the days when BA was built.
In fact, they were surely aware that any sort of sealed/boxed construction in principle should always be avoided in a wooden boat - the reason being precisely the one that you experienced, i.e. wood rotting, particularly due to fresh water.
But, and it's a big but, the boxed gunwale that you have on BA, with its smooth surface on both sides, is MUCH more elegant than the traditional wooden gunwale construction, which is the one I had in my old lady (see pic in post #829), and which isn't much different from what you see in the following pic of yours, without the internal panels:
2017-12-05-PHOTO-00000254-XL.jpg


In fact, from a functional/structural standpoint, there is absolutely no need to have the internal panel enclosing the wooden bones in a box which - one way or another - is bound to become a water trap of some sort.
Otoh, even if you imagine the gunwale as is in the above pic, but nicely finished and painted, it's rather obvious that it will never be anywhere near as elegant as the one originally made by Canados...

Bottom line, form suggests the original Canados solution, and function suggests the fully open gunwale.
A boxed but ventilated gunwale (where air can flow inside each boxed section and water/moisture can drain out) would probably make a relevant difference in durability.
I mean, if the sealed boxes can last say 20 years, ventilated ones can probably last 50% longer, vs. the double or more of the traditional (fully open) construction.
Now, if you think it's worth the hassle, how and where to create these vent/drain openings is something difficult to suggest based on the pics, but the yard should be able to advise.
In principle, I believe it would make sense to have drains in any lower points of the enclosed boxes, because neither water nor moisture as such are the killers of wood - their stagnation is.
So, what you want to avoid is leaving any point where water dripping along the inner parts of the panels (btw, GRP panels are bound to attract more moisture than wooden panels) remains trapped forever...
...But that's easier said than done, I'm afraid!
 
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Portofino

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My inclination would be to avoid totally enclosed sections ,the boat will flex underway ( more so in big seas ) and add in different thermal coefficient s ( summer day / nights ) of the wood and GRP ,glue and anything else there’s an inevitability of water leaks from busted joints .
It’s possible without drains stagnant water due to gravity may find its way through any deck / hull join eventually deeper down into the cabins staining ceilings / walls etc .
You could end up chasing your tail finding the leaks .

Also any wiring and / or connection (s) - sitting at the base of the inside of the gunwales boxes is vulnerable to problems if it’s essentially submerged for any length of time I would have thought ? .

A small round s steel drain hole bottom as low as poss towards the stern to let water out .Along with a nice white plastic / nylon discrete vent high up to allow air circulation and evaporate to get out .The summer heat helping here during the day .
Ideally hanger the boat in the winter - If you don,t then that’s another nudge towards drain / ventilate each box .

You see just imagine berthing issues , not necessary your great helmsman :( ship - but a neighbours perhaps when visiting and it’s windy - different size boats freeboard wise and his higher fenders press on your “ new “ gunwales -any flexing gonna bust any seals = water ingress / stagnation.
 

Portofino

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From the pics I noticed there does not seem to be any temporary protection like cardboard or a cloth put on the teak deck while the guys are working?
Tools just dropped on it and general detritus messing it up ?

Are there any works planned for the deck ?
 

wakeup

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Could you fill the voids with insulating foam (closed cell obviously) or board to cut down on the amount of air circulating inside the voids.

Perhaps then there would be little need for ventilation if there is little to no air gap.
 

Portofino

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Could you fill the voids with insulating foam (closed cell obviously) or board to cut down on the amount of air circulating inside the voids.

Perhaps then there would be little need for ventilation if there is little to no air gap.

Sounds like good way to make a soggy core .What facilitating water contact with the wood over a bigger area —- How do you propose to dry that out ?
 

jfm

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I would definitely allow ventilation because as Porto says it will flex and leak. But I also like very much wakeup's idea. You could just put thick blocks of expanded polystyrene in there, kept up off the deck of course. This will reduce the air change volume and therefore the damp air intake volume to 1/10th.

More generally, this looks a v nice job. Except I'm not convinced about building these new gunwales on top of the existing teak planking. I would have preferred to build it on top of the underlying plywood, i.e. with the teak planks stripped away. This would have removed one unnecessary layer from the sandwich. When you renew the teak planks, all the old planks must now be cut with a fein saw.
 

MapisM

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I'm not convinced about building these new gunwales on top of the existing teak planking.
I was going to comment along the same lines, but on second thought I didn't, because I'm not sure they really are.

Let's start from the logic of a "normal" wooden construction, looking at the pic below which I found while googling the Malahide that Deleted User posted in his "what's a trawler" thread, for a change vs. using my old lady - which is practically identical anyway.
140563_BoatPic_Foredeck.jpg


In this construction, by definition you don't/can't build the gunwales on top of teak planks, because the "scalmotti" come out across the "trincarino", and don't even touch the teak planking.
"Scalmotti" is the IT term for the vertical wooden beams which form the main gunwales structure - Trincarino is as previously debated.

Now, BA construction is radically different, due to the GRP hull.
Among the pics previously poster, the following is the one which better explains where the fiberglass ends and the wood starts:
i-C4Drq97-L.jpg


Here, the "inverse L" shape of the hull top, built in solid fiberglass, appears to work as a sort of raised trincarino in this construction. Therefore, the scalmotti and the whole gunwales are built upon that solid GRP border (*), from a structural viewpoint. They do extend further down a bit, reaching the teak planks level, but I don't think there's any structural reason for that, aside from bonding/sealing the whole boxed gunwales.

Bottom line, if and when the teak planks should be replaced, it might be feasible to strip also the first two plank courses under the gunwale after removing just its internal panels, without disassembling the whole gunwales again.
Btw, those planks hidden inside the gunwales bottom look as good as new (unsurprisingly, since they spent their whole life well protected), so my guess is that a good carpenter would suggest to NOT strip also those, and possibly just recaulk them - maybe this was already evaluated by the yard while doing the job, 'dunno...

All that aside, back to ventilation, I'm a bit skeptic about the effectiveness of wakeup idea.
I mean, yes, by filling the closed boxes with termanto or whatever, the moisture formation would be reduced to some extent.
Then again, the big concern is neither water nor moisture as such, it's their stagnation in enclosed spaces hard to dry/drain.
And by filling the gunwale boxes, I would fear that countless water traps - no matter how small - would be created along the whole length and internal surfaces of the gunwale.
'Fiuaskme, I'd rather have wooden bits which are frequently exposed to tons of water, as long as it can drain quickly, than much smaller amounts of water which are staying in permanent contact with wood, with nowhere to escape, nor any air flowing to dry them out.
Just look at the Malahide pic above: the whole deck+gunwales are completely wet, but that's no big deal, because upon the next couple of hours of dry weather, everything will be as dry as a bone again.
Were the same wooden bits enclosed, with the same amount of water (or even less) trapped inside, they could rot within the timeframe of just one winter... :ambivalence:

(*): while the top border of the GRP hull appears built in solid lamination, by looking at that pic again, the sides seem built in balsa-cored sandwich. Is that correct, B? Just curious.
 

Bajansailor

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If I had a choice, I would much prefer to see the frames supporting the bulwarks, rather than covering them with panels.
OK, the panels help to make them look smooth and sleek like a GRP boat - but if that is the desire, buy a GRP boat instead.

There are some photos of bulwarks like this in this Malahide (almost) link as well -http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1969/Trawler-Malahide-Beaver-Class-3155817/North-Fambridge/United-Kingdom
Although they (like the rest of the vessel) are in need of some TLC.

I see the same thing on commercial wooden fishing vessels here - water / air tight panels are fitted on the inboard sides of the frames supporting the bulwarks / hull sides, and the frames are invariably sawn mahogany, and at best the frames last perhaps 5 years before they have to be renewed.
Yet the boat owners insist on doing this.
In similar fashion to their insistence on caulking the seams with cotton, then paying the seams with WEST system and colloidal silica - it doesn't last too long, so then they do it again.
 

BartW

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Thanks for comments and advice,
Here some quick drawings to discuss this in detail







1) Re. Ventilation of the gunwale sections
most of you agree that it would be better to vent and drain that space, instead of making airtight compartments,

I considered 2 possible way’s to do that:

• VENT 1 , Drill holes through that mahony beam, (2 holes in each segment)
remember that the cavity just above the deck, is open to the air and water can go out, via 2 scuppers
the longest distance from a gunwale segment to a scupper (air opening) is approx 4meter

And - Or

• VENT 2 Make small slot openings in the GRP gunwale panels , right along/above this "trincarino" beam, so that when water gets in, it has a way out, and can’t stagnate inside.
similar to the openings I made in the old plywood panels, and wich resulted in completely dry inside gunwale… !


would Vent 1 be sufficient, or is Vent 2 the better solution ??

2) Re. Jfm and Mapism remark, building the new gunwale frames on the existing teac,
The original plan was to take away the teac also in that position, and building on bare or new ply,
but the works progressed faster than I was expecting / too late to give these instructions.
Now I think this is not too bad, because in that position there still is the originally fitted 12mm teac,
and afaik, there is nowhere any leak in that zone.

The remaining old teac on the deck (5..6mil remaining) will be sanded away, until bare plywood, This will be done before the new GRP panels are permanently installed
Deck plywood will be replaced where needed, but so far, we know just a few minor zones with bad plywood.

There is one zone, near the transom gate, where the plywood is bad,, and it might be possible that they will have to replace the ply partially underneath the new gunwale construction,
So if this problem shows up, we will see how we / they will solve that.

When the new gunwale framing construction and plywood deck is visible and clean,
Then all will be impregnated with Epoxy, and where appropriate reinforced with glass fabric.

Final stage will be, glue the new GRP panels in position, and placing new 12mm teac on the ply deck,

The yard is very cooperative, but communication is difficult, even with a local friend there for translation.
Also they are not used to listen to a boat owner that tells them this kind of details… remember they are the specialists :)

at Mapism, I agree with your comment re completely “open” gunwale as in the Malahide foto, even considered that method,
But as you say, this Canados construction is completely different and not really apropriate to make it that way.
And also wouldn’t look coherent with other parts from this boat model.
 
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BartW

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on the side decks, on each side of the boat are 4 x Scuppers,
I believe that's how the deck water draining openings through the bulwark are called ...

= opening in the inner and outer GRP panel, 20cm long, 5cm high, just above deck level

here on this picture is such a scupper right behind the rope



on this picture you can see the scupper opening on the outside

 
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jimmy_the_builder

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on the side decks, on each side of the boat are 4 x Scubbers,
I believe that's how the deck water draining openings through the bulwark are called ...

= opening in the inner and outer GRP panel, 20cm long, 5cm high, just above deck level

Aha, that makes sense (fyi spelling is 'scuppers').

I think the 'it'll last longer than you' argument offered by others makes good sense... :D
 

MapisM

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Now I think this is not too bad, because in that position there still is the originally fitted 12mm teac, and afaik, there is nowhere any leak in that zone.
That's good news - pretty much as I guessed! :encouragement:

Overall, I believe that your "new situation" scheme makes sense, and on top of being the easiest solution without making radical changes to the construction, it's also the best from an aesthetical viewpoint - something which might not be so important on a Malahide or an Azzurro, but on a vessel like BA is indeed relevant.

Careful with the vents, though.
Remember, they must always be placed in the lowest possible point, because what you want to avoid like the plague are puddle traps - even the smallest ones. That's the reason why, in your drawing, I would modify the vents positions as follows.
"Vent 2" is actually akin to the existing scuppers in your pics, and imho it's sufficient to have them on the external sides, assuming that the transversal deck surface is slightly angled downward from the centerline to the sides.

Besides, careful also with their longitudinal placement: in most boats, the deck is not horizontal, but has a slight upward angle from the stern to the bow. If that is the case also with BA, both Vent 1 and 2 should be placed in each corner with the vertical beams towards the stern of all "boxed" sections of the bulwark.

PS: I would consider, while the bulwark is open, to take the opportunity to recaulk the old teak which is left underneath.
As I already noticed, it's not surprising that the teak planks are still in very good conditions, but time has surely taken its toll on the rubber, and you don't want to risk leaks from the seams to the plywood underneath!
aIWa7OPh_o.jpg
 
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BartW

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good idea about the external vent openings P, I like that
one small slot opening H x L 1cm x 5cm in the corner, just in front of each GRP frame, and right level with the old teak

there are less deck level GRP frames then wooden upper gunwale frames (scalmotti) see pic below




I think that recaulking the old teac is almost impossible,
because acces for removing old caulk is very difficult, if not impossible,
and in most area's, the yard has already fixed (glue) the wooden slat for holding the lower edge of the new GRP panels

the only solution I see, is covering the remaining teac surface there with a brush, with plentifull epoxy (?)
 
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BartW

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at Wakeup
filling the voids with foam doesn't give a solution for water leaking in there,
it might create additional water puddles instead...

there are many possible way's for water getting in there; via deck lights, via fairleads, or via the gardrail fixings on the top.
all will be placed with rubber washers or sika, but we all know with the flexing over time, that the sealing will never be perfect.


at Porto,
yes the teac on the deck will be replaced,
that was part of this plan,

actually fixing a few water leaks through the deck into the cabins was the main reason for this major project
 

wakeup

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at Wakeup
filling the voids with foam doesn't give a solution for water leaking in there,
it might create additional water puddles instead...

there are many possible way's for water getting in there; via deck lights, via fairleads, or via the gardrail fixings on the top.
all will be placed with rubber washers or sika, but we all know with the flexing over time, that the sealing will never be perfect.

OK.
 

BartW

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140563_BoatPic_Foredeck.jpg


just look at the Malahide pic above: the whole deck+gunwales are completely wet, but that's no big deal, because upon the next couple of hours of dry weather, everything will be as dry as a bone again.
Were the same wooden bits enclosed, with the same amount of water (or even less) trapped inside, they could rot within the timeframe of just one winter... :ambivalence:

(*): while the top border of the GRP hull appears built in solid lamination, by looking at that pic again, the sides seem built in balsa-cored sandwich. Is that correct, B? Just curious.


looking at that Malahide picture above, that boxed section of the gunwale, where the fairlead sits,
there are some black stains,
could that be from water stagnation in that boxed volume !?


(*) while drilling throug the hull , we have experienced that some parts are
- solid lamination: hull bottom ( re hole for stabs) , edge from bottom to sides, Hull top border
- and some are indeed balsa cored sandwich; see transom door cutout / UWL's / extra stern cleats / and a repair of the hull side between 2 portholes
 

MrB

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Re the bulwark frame in the photo below
https://bass.smugmug.com/2018-Gunwale/i-NqW6DLW/A

Is this just a temporary securing arrangement re the screws that are holding it in place?
Was it also glued afterwards (or otherwise 'properly' attached)?

I noticed that too, very poor workmanship from a joinery point of view, it's been cut too short so it will have no strength. Maybe just a temporary frame??
 

Bajansailor

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Bart, it certainly sounds like your hull topsides above the chine are balsa cored.
Hence I would suggest that you invest in a moisture meter and take measurements in various places (perhaps in a grid pattern?) on your topsides when the boat is next hauled out for maintenance (or is she ashore now)?
The odds are that you will find pockets with locally high readings where rainwater has seeped in, from whatever sources.
I have had a Tramex Skipper moisture meter for the past 20 years, and it is brilliant.
Moisture meters are also very good for inspecting balsa cored decks (provided that they do not have teak on top of them) - I have often found locally high readings (going off the scale even) in way of where fittings have been through bolted, and the sealant underneath the fitting has deteriorated, allowing water to seep in to the bolt holes.
https://www.tramexmeters.eu/store/moisture-meters-for-boats/skipper-plus-moisture-meter-for-boats

Re the bulwark frame mentioned in my previous post, it appears to have been fairly well shaped out of mahogany, hence I doubt that it would just be a temporary frame.
Can you post another photo sometime please showing how it was 'finished off'?
 
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