Blue Angel (Canados 70s) Rebuild thread

[Portofino]

Has there been a moment that you have regretted buying a wooden boat ?
I ask this in a pragmatic way , because weekly via brokers I get sent “ deals “ of similar Italian lady’s some wood some all GRP ,
Some teak triple planks hulls with GRP ,top sides - eg Akhir ,s circa 1990,s ish ? ,
It seems to me the all wooden boats seem @ the lower end the asking price spectrum .

But having seen what you have posted over your ownership experience , disregarding the discretionary spend like the holo bathing platform etc , —- to be frank , thank you as you have put me off getting involved with a wooden boat .

I do appreciate sharing the ownership experience and assume others do too :encouragement:

 

[vas]

Bart,

nice work, should keep bulwarks fine for another 20yrs!

however, on the above pics (the worse of the lot you posted) I can see that the outer skin of the ply is affected, you going to replace bits outside as well?

FWIW, in the similar situation on my aft deck I opted NOT to replace with ply, but with a sandwitch of alloy-rubber-alloy 4-5mm thick used extensively in shop fronts. End result is good to excellent depending on shapes, fittment, curvatures.
Extra bonus, you don't have to paint, and with 6-8mm countersunks you can remove and examine at will.

cheers

V.

 

[MapisM]

on the above pics (the worse of the lot you posted) I can see that the outer skin of the ply is affected, you going to replace bits outside as well?

I must disagree, Vas. Imho, the worse area is by far at the stern, as per following pic:

It's not so much whether some outer panels are involved or not that would worry me, it's rather the fact that some bulwark frames seem to be affected, not just the panels.
Now, bulwark frames can be either applied on top of the deck, or they can be built as the prosecution of the hull frames, in a more structural way (so to speak), with the deck going round them.
IIRC, wooden built Canados (I mean, those with wooden hulls) used the latter technique.
Anyway, this doesn't matter so much with BA, because her hull is moulded.
For the records, back in those years (early 90s), the yard began building also the superstructure in GRP with the 58, which was their smaller boat. They kept wooden superstructures for a while on larger boats because their buyers would have turned up their nose to all-plastic boats, and they were willing to pay more for the wooden superstructure... Talk about a bygone era...!

But I digress.
Back to the point of the rotten bulwark frames, my concern is that if the water ingress has been enough to attack those solid and pretty large chunks of wood (possibly oak or mahogany? Do you know what it is, B?), I fear that also the deck structure (beams and panels under the teak planks) in that area might have been involved.
What is the yard saying about that, B?
Btw, obviously IF any deck beams are in need of replacement, it would be much better and more efficient to do that in the context of the bulwark rebuild, since the beams surely reach the boat sides up to under the bulwark.

Anyway, all the very best.
I wish I had the guts (and the budget!) for keeping a beautiful vessel as BA in top conditions, as you are! :encouragement:

 

[MapisM]

Has there been a moment that you have regretted buying a wooden boat ?

I feel entitled to answer that, PF - and even if obviously I can't speak for BartW, I bet that his answer wouldn't be much different.
It doesn't take a lot of time to regret the purchase of a wooden boat.
Maybe one or two years, possibly a bit more, depending on the initial conditions.
But unless a wooden boat owner never takes off his rose-tinted glasses, sooner or later he will think why oh why didn't I go for a plastic boat.
So, the answer to your question is bound to be yes, for any sensible person - as surely B is.

There's a problem, though - and it's a biggie.
Btw, I'm saying this also to BartW, because it's something he might not be aware of. Not yet, at least.
The thing is that if you resist the initial shock of the constant attention and TLC that a wooden boat demands, after a while you get used to living aboard a wooden boat.
And after years, whenever you might think to replace her, you simply take the onboard life quality for granted, and you assume that it's just a matter of size, number and layout of cabins, etc - regardless of construction material.
So, your first thought can as well be, let's move on, getting rid of the hassle of wood boat ownership.
And you buy a plastic boat. Now, THIS is the proof of the pudding.
After some months surrounded by plastic, you forget the headaches of wood maintenance, and all you know is that the feeling when living aboard just isn't the same anymore.
Before, you were at home. Now, you are in a boat. A bit sad, really.
Goes without saying that any similarity with my personal experience is no coincidence... :ambivalence:

Ref. your comment...

It seems to me the all wooden boats seem @ the lower end the asking price spectrum.

...you are positively correct.
Mind, as we also discussed recently about market prices/values of D/SD boats vs. P boats, this is something that has absolutely nothing to see with real values - it's just the old law of supply and demand at work.
There are some wooden boats in the market whose asking prices are much higher than what I fetched for my old lady, but I wouldn't have wanted them if they were given away for free.
Good, bad and ugly springs to mind - some others are absolute gems.
I've seen for instance a couple of boats (Akhir and Alalunga), which were among the very last 100% wooden built.
One was even still owned by the person who bought her new, for God knows how many billions of liras, 25 years ago.
Always managed and handled by the same full time professional captain, also while winterized.
Now, stunning doesn't even begin describing the conditions of those vessels, which I could have bought for less than I spent for the DP.
If it weren't that eventually we gave ourselves a strict size limit, I might have done yet another insanity...

 

[Portofino]

Here’s an example , it’s a 70 ,s modal , but I think style wise it still cuts it and hits MapishM s “ home “ point bulls eye
Bit like a classic car ,different looks wise than the euro- trash being churned out today , It has its own charm .

http://www.mondialbroker.com/Barca.aspx?pk=cc9514d6-38d9-4964-8568-b4592b56bcf5

Btw , we are not contemplating a move , just appreciate the boats ,wooden old girls .

 

[MapisM]

Here’s an example

That's surely a lot of boat for the money, but I know nothing about her. The couple of Akhirs I've seen were much younger.
Otoh, in these boats, age means close to nothing, and the same goes for the low engine hours reported for this particular boat.
It all depends on three factors: maintenance, maintenance, maintenance.

 

[BartW]

Has there been a moment that you have regretted buying a wooden boat ?

In addition to Mapism ’s answer to your question,

Often I wonder what boat I would have bought, knowing what I know now,
and usually the answer is that I’m fortunate with my choice;
As most of the Prin/fair/ ferret from that era are not nice looking plastic tubs, with very ugly furniture urch…
The few exceptions to that (sa San Lorenzo, Alalunga) I could not afford at that time,
The original idea was to start with completely wooden boat, I'm fortunate we didn't do that !
This semi wooden boat enabled me to start my big boat owner live much sooner, which I don’t regret for one second.

There is one major conceptual mistake in the Canados70s construction, and that is this non ventilated gunwale, but apart from that
not much of our rebuilding was related to the wooden construction.
The wood superstructure is considering her age, still in very good condition.

And it might sound silly, but still we meet guests or boating people that really like Blue Angel, just like me and my family.
I still consider her as a classic boat with lots of character. (like your Itama by the way )

Regarding prices of old wooden boats, sure there are some very nice examples at a very low price available,
That is indeed the old law of supply and demand,
in combination with our current society where human labour and time has become very expensive and very precious,

 

[BartW]

I must disagree, Vas. Imho, the worse area is by far at the stern, as per following pic:

It's not so much whether some outer panels are involved or not that would worry me, it's rather the fact that some bulwark frames seem to be affected, not just the panels.
Now, bulwark frames can be either applied on top of the deck, or they can be built as the prosecution of the hull frames, in a more structural way (so to speak), with the deck going round them.
IIRC, wooden built Canados (I mean, those with wooden hulls) used the latter technique.
Anyway, this doesn't matter so much with BA, because her hull is moulded.
For the records, back in those years (early 90s), the yard began building also the superstructure in GRP with the 58, which was their smaller boat. They kept wooden superstructures for a while on larger boats because their buyers would have turned up their nose to all-plastic boats, and they were willing to pay more for the wooden superstructure... Talk about a bygone era...!

But I digress.
Back to the point of the rotten bulwark frames, my concern is that if the water ingress has been enough to attack those solid and pretty large chunks of wood (possibly oak or mahogany? Do you know what it is, B?), I fear that also the deck structure (beams and panels under the teak planks) in that area might have been involved.
What is the yard saying about that, B?
Btw, obviously IF any deck beams are in need of replacement, it would be much better and more efficient to do that in the context of the bulwark rebuild, since the beams surely reach the boat sides up to under the bulwark.

Anyway, all the very best.
I wish I had the guts (and the budget!) for keeping a beautiful vessel as BA in top conditions, as you are! :encouragement:

the stern quarter zones were bad, but temporarely refurbished 2y ago,
lately the most affected bad zones were around these side doors , in the cockpit area. (left side from the pic above) Even so bad that when someone was leaning on them we were afraid that the gunwale was going to fall apart...

I have'nt seen in the flesh yet, just on recent pics; some of the bulwark frames have been replaced with solid new wood, will asc what kind of wood that is, when I vist the yard, end coming week.

its indeed the plan, to also remove the old teak, inspect the deck floor, repair and place new teak.
The frames underneath the deck, are not necessary affected,
most area's we ve been able to inspect , had enough airflow / ventilation, all to be investigated in a few weeks

 

[MapisM]

The frames underneath the deck, are not necessary affected

Absolutely.
Of course I wasn't envisaging that the deck beams are likely to be affected.
I just mentioned that as something worth checking, in the context of bulwark rebuild.
But of course, this is an egg sucking lesson for any experienced yard, as I'm sure the one you choose is!
Keep us posted on the developments, I for one will follow the project with great interest.

 

[vas]

I just hope it's not like MiToS decks (soaking wet and rotten, but then it was water dripping in and soaking the lot for a number of years!)
Even then, deck (combo ply with top layer of thickish teak) was gone, but iroko frames under it were 98% perfect (iirc I replaced 3 in the whole deck)

cheers

V.

 

[MapisM]

The original idea was to start with completely wooden boat, I'm fortunate we didn't do that !

I'm not sure to agree with that, B.
In most wooden boats (as long as they are well built - and wooden Canados, Akhir, Alalunga, Diano, etc. definitely are!), it's always the rainwater that creates problems on the superstructure.
Also here in CF, there's a Canados 70s built not many years before yours, all wood.
Her one and only problem with the hull, which was repaired a few years ago, was due to a neglected leak from one cabin shower, which left fresh water on the bilge long enough to rot some planks.
And even then, a proper repair could easily be done.
You really must neglect a wooden hull awfully, and for a long time, to make serious damages hard to repair.
Not so with decks and superstructure, as you perfectly know by now...

And it might sound silly, but still we meet guests or boating people that really like Blue Angel, just like me and my family.

Sound silly? You must be joking.
Whenever you should meet someone who doesn't like BA, you will be talking with a chap who knows absolutely nothing about boats! :encouragement:

 

[BartW]

Here is the next badge of pics from the works:





these pics show that the wooden frames from the gunwale are fixed on a horizontal solid wooden beam, and this beam (partially rotten) sits on the edge of the GRP hull with GRP frames,
On the outside that horizontal beam, is covered with the SS rubrail.









I guess they kept this part, as a model for the curvation, so that the orriginal SS hawsholes fit.
remember this is quite solid, as it was repaired and reinforced with grp only 2y ago,























here they discovered a rotten part below the deck, this is the step in the side deck,
inside we didn't notice, so I guess the water disappeared behind the wall panels, or through the bulkhead wall, in to the bilges.



from the pics I think I can say that the yard is doing this job thoroughly, ;-)

 

[vas]

definitely very thoroughly (I hope they're not v.expensive as it does look v.expensive...)

Bart, how was the joint between GRP hull and painted plywood setup originally? Just a ss U section or something like that?
I guess they are now going to paint ALL the bulwarks and colour match to the hull, right?

cheers

V.

 

[Hardmy]

That's a refit which goes in direction of VAS's magnitude. Respect for untertaking this, you are very brave! But I believe you didn't have much choice?

Tell us more about this yard, they seem to know what they are doing. Are they still building wooden boats from scratch?

 

[AndieMac]

That's a refit which goes in direction of VAS's magnitude............

Initially I thought the same when seeing the photos, but I think Bart will be on top of the big issues that have been playing on his mind since purchasing BA all those years ago.
He's quite determined to get this boat right, and I've appreciated him sharing the story with us along the way, the good bits and the not so good bits

 

[BartW]

definitely very thoroughly (I hope they're not v.expensive as it does look v.expensive...)

Bart, how was the joint between GRP hull and painted plywood setup originally? Just a ss U section or something like that?
I guess they are now going to paint ALL the bulwarks and colour match to the hull, right?

cheers

V.

actually they made me a very good quote (perhaps slightly worrying low)
so these pics make me feel good so far...

that horizontal hardwood beam, is visible on the outside,
and covered with the SS Rub rail


Here is the SS rub rail fitted



here that SS rail is off



and here is a cross section (from former work, fitting the transom door)

 

[BartW]

That's a refit which goes in direction of VAS's magnitude. Respect for untertaking this, you are very brave! But I believe you didn't have much choice?

Tell us more about this yard, they seem to know what they are doing. Are they still building wooden boats from scratch?

it was indeed time to get this fixed.
I was aware from the initial survey that this bulwark is a weak spot on the C70s.
Not all panels were as bad as the pictures show, but I'm gladd that the yard does it thoroughly without any discussion.

I'm very fortunate with my local old friend Alfonso, who found this yard.
he didn't know them, but asked around, and visited quite a few yards in Naples region,
this yard was advised by several of his friends
then he did the traditional haggling about the price which is obligatory in Italy ;-)
and in one way or the other, Alfonso alway's enforces respect from the people he is dealing with .

the yard is in Santa Maria di Castellabate, 130km south of Naples

http://www.cantierinavalicilentani.com/eng/index.html

or formerly known as:
cantieri navale Ippolito

they used to make wood and steel fishing boats,
Here they are making a new wooden mast for my neighbor, a 30m-ish old wooden sail boat



They have a huge wood, and a big steel workshop,
It seems they can do most of the work with their own people
Fe they are placing teak on a new FB yacht, all done in house, saw 60x12mm teak slats from big old and dry slices of a teak tree.
They are in a region were labour cost is low, and I think they are still used doing a lot of traditional handwork.
I don’t know yet how many, but it appears they have quite a number of people working there.

Valentin, I might have told you that our friends in Monopoly didn't want to make a quote for this work, as they were completely occupied with making a new type of fishing boat. Sad as I liked Mirna quite well

 

[BartW]

I guess they are now going to paint ALL the bulwarks and colour match to the hull, right?

V.

remember the bulwark, aswell as the complete superstructure WAS painted,
we have already done quite a few touch ups,
so I have the NCS color code, and the corresponding Jotun color number

 

[petem]

Very impressive Bart, respect to you for taking this on.

 

[MapisM]

that horizontal hardwood beam, is visible on the outside,
and covered with the SS Rub rail

B, just FYI, I believe that the first course of deck planks, placed under and along the bulwark, is called "scupper" in EN - though I'm happy to stand corrected by anyone who knows better.
What I'm sure of is that "trincarino" is the IT term, just in case you might use it when talking with the yard.

Anyway, "beams" are something different, i.e. the transversal solid wooden bars which support the whole deck.
You must have a lot of them, under the teak planks, along the whole boat length - every half a meter or so, I would guess.
In your pics, the only visible deck beam is that bit of wood painted in grey with some black drips of sealant, placed under the step which was opened (see pic below).
You must have a lot of those, both short(ish) ones, under the walkarounds (as in that step pic) and longer ones, under the bow and the cockpit, going across the whole boat width.
Regardless, these are critical structural parts in any timber deck, and they are what I had in mind when in my previous post I suggested to have them carefully checked.
My concern would be that their external side, which goes under the bulwark, might have been reached by rainwater in places - though I must say that for what I can see in your pic of the step, that beam doesn't seem to be affected.
And as I said, my suggestion is actually just an egg sucking lesson, for any experienced yard - as the one you choose surely is! :encouragement:

PS: the IT for deck beam is "baglio" (plural: "bagli"), just in case you would wish to ask them to check if all of them are solid and don't show any rot signs...

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